Is a Hummer greener than a Prius?
When someone sends AutoblogGreen a tip titled "Hummers are Greener than Priuses", we've got to look into it. So we clicked on over to the opinion column on the Reason Foundation's website and found not a mind-blowing expose of the environmental benefits of the Governator's vehicle of choice but instead a somewhat interesting but ultimately weak argument bashing hybrids.
Basically, what CNW Marketing Research, Inc. tried to do was understand just how much total energy it takes to makes, ship, drive and dispose of a particular vehicle. This is a pretty cool goal, and I appreciate this kind of holistic analysis of a consumer product. I'm certainly in no position to say CNW set up the study to make Hummers look better than Priuses. Cars are filthy beasts, and calling attention to this is a good thing. The problem here is the way the Reason Foundation uses the study for their own ends. They're so happy having a "study" (even one that is amazingly unclear of its sources and methods while pretending to be nothing but clear on them) that criticizes foreign hybrids that they manage to suck all sorts of context from the green car debate.
CNW's study authors wrote that, "Our goal, again, is simply to look at what society has to pay for the energy needed to support various vehicles". Well, if they're serious, then what about the type of energy needed to drive around in a Hummer versus a Prius? Sure, the Prius may need expensive battery components while the Hummer doesn't, but what the Hummer saves in production costs it uses in movement. Because what type of energy does driving a Hummer use up? Lots and lots of oil. And where does most of the oil that we in the United State use come from? The Middle East. So, using more oil gives Middle Eastern countries more money – something CNW (and Reason) is silent about. And what about the reality that hybrids will get better and cheaper down the line? We know it will happen, so why jump up and down and point at the politically charged Hummer and say it's good for us? BTW, the Scion xB was the most energy-efficient vehicle in CNW's study. I agree that hybrids have many faults and are not the answer to all our problems. But I cannot stand by while some fool tells me that driving a vehicle that gets 9 MPG is good for the environment. It's not. Try as one might, you can't Reason your way out of that simple fact.
[Source: Reason.org, Hat Tip to Rod Garrett]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Brandon 1:03AM (5/15/2008)
The vehicle pictured is an H2 people, NOT an H3. The H2 does get about 10 mpg city and 12 highway. That is NOT doing the environment good in anyway, now get over yourselves.
Reply
Allan Yeats 9:23AM (7/21/2006)
I knew there was a reason why the automakers don't advertise the Hummer's abyssmal mileage rating at car-shows. 9 MPG!! Just goes to show the only thing it can't pass is a gas station!!
(BTW, I drive a 2003 VW TDI Diesel. It gets about 45 --> 50 MPG, depending on the weather)
Reply
K 9:23AM (7/21/2006)
I'm actually more convinced by CNW's study after reading your response to it.
So you believe them when they say the Scion xB is the most efficient car, but you dont' believe them when they say the Hummer is more efficient than the Prius?
You can't have it both ways. Yes the Hummer gets lower gas mileage than a Prius.
Yes the Hummer is still more efficient than the Prius when you consider total energy usage.
It's counter intuitive but sometimes it works out that way.
Reply
Dr. George R. Lester 10:47AM (7/21/2006)
How absurd can you be. If you want to justify buying and driving a Hummer, why not just send your money directly to bin Laden? If you are serious student of this matter, see 'Vehicle-cycle Energy ... of Conventional and Advanced Vehices', Moon et al., Argonne National Laboratory, SAE 2006-01-0375 (order for $12 from SAE, 877-606-7323).
I have been driving a hybrid for five years/fifty thousand miles, and get a good feeling when I think of the money I am not sending to bin Laden to send losers flying into our buildings.
Reply
Wraith 10:50AM (7/21/2006)
"And where does most of the oil that we in the United State use come from? The Middle East."
While it's true that the Middle East represents a significant source of oil for the U.S., I don't believe that it is the source of "most" of our oil imports.
Two EIA links on oil/petroleum imports:
http://tinyurl.com/7ldt
http://tinyurl.com/5cp67
Reply
Alric 11:12AM (7/21/2006)
Note how the measure of energy used by the study does not correlate with total co2 output to the atmosphere. A measure that is of great importance to hybrid owners.
Also, the article mentions a 100,000 mile limit for a Prius and 300k for a Hummer? The truth behind this statement is that Prius batteries have been tested to the equivalent of 100k without loss of performance.
Reply
Rod Garrett 11:55AM (7/21/2006)
The "Marketing Research" company's "report" cited as authority by the article is 500 pages of boilerplate, padded with a few stats, anecdotes and even cartoons, but little to nothing on sources. Check it out at:
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/
Reply
loikll 12:29PM (7/21/2006)
I think a good analysis is pretty easy, actually, and doesn't require a 500 page report.
Simply, the cost of the total vehicle (say, the actual cost-of-goods-sold to the vehicle manufacturer, not the dealer's retail), plus the long-run costs of fueling and maintaining it, are almost surely very closely related to the amount of energy and resources that are input into creating and using the car. Cost is just a way to use formal accounting to tally inputs, after all.
Therefore I suspect a Prius may have greater net environmental impact than a Corolla or a Kia Rio (which, after all, get roughly similar gas mileage) -- but less than than a pricey Hummer.
Reply
jiltedcitizen 2:37PM (7/21/2006)
Wow, what kind of idiots make an argument that we get our oil from the Mideast and send money to bin laden. I didn't know he owned oil wells. We get most of our oil from Canada and South America. It remains to be seen what will happen to the batteries when hybrids are trashed too. Hopefully recycled.
Reply
Spike 4:29PM (7/21/2006)
Reason Foundation is a tool of Exxon so this is no surprise.
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=63
Reply
AMcA 10:26PM (7/21/2006)
This study makes a useful point: a lot of energy goes into building a hybrid before it can start 'saving' fuel.
Think about it: hybrids have big expensive batteries, made of rare metals. How do you get rare metals? Move lots of earth, and refine it. Seriously energy intesive activity.
A Prius battery is reportedly a $4-5000 item. And I bet the bulk of that is the cost of the energy that goes into it.
(Note, too: the real conclusion of is really more interesting, and quite intuitive. That's that simple little cars are overall the most energy efficient. In fact, way more energy efficient than cars that go to great lengths to save one particular form of energy. You gotta think about the big picture, guys.)
Reply
johnnash 5:00AM (7/23/2006)
What no-one has pointed out yet, is that not only hybrids take more energy in making batteries, but even more energy in recycling them...
Batteries are highly toxic & recycling them takes extremely large amounts of energy.
Energy that comes from where? Powerplants which indirectly = coal and natural gas. Powerlines also contribute to the loss, as they lose power through friction as well.
Multiply this over a car's lifetime, which will consume several sets of batteries and the environmental cost rises significantly.
And what happens if just one car's batteries end up in a landfill? That is a much bigger toxic hazard then a scraped H3.
People buy hybrids either as an image statement, or because they think they are doing the environment good.
Want to be economical? I'm all for that. Go buy a small 4 cylinder sedan. Just don't be fooled by thinking your actually doing a favor for the environment in a hybrid, when you are actually HARMING THE ENVIRONMENT!
Reply
petersylvester 4:38PM (7/23/2006)
Actually the Hummer pictured has an EPA rating ofg 20mpg, not 9 as you state. That truck is better on fuel economy than some very surprising others- For instance, a Toyota 4Runner,Nissan Pathfinder & Maxima etc...
I am on the side of economy and ecology, but all the BS everyone seems to spew about the hummers as the poster child of everything wrong in the world, is becoming anoying missinformation....
Reply
petersylvester 4:42PM (7/23/2006)
Actually the Hummer pictured has an EPA rating ofg 20mpg, not 9 as you
state. That truck is better on fuel economy than some very surprising
others- For instance, a Toyota 4Runner, Nissan Pathfinder & even Maxima if i am not mistaken..
etc...
I am on the side of economy and ecology, but all the BS
everyone seems to spew about the hummers as the poster child of
everything wrong in the world, is becoming anoying
missinformation....
Reply
petersylvester 4:43PM (7/23/2006)
Actually the Hummer pictured has an EPA rating ofg 20mpg, not 9 as you
state. That truck is better on fuel economy than some very surprising
others- For instance, a Toyota 4Runner,Nissan Pathfinder & Maxima
etc...
I am on the side of economy and ecology, but all the BS
everyone seems to spew about the hummers as the poster child of
everything wrong in the world, is becoming anoying
missinformation....
Reply
Educated in NY 6:49AM (7/24/2006)
Honestly, don't try to convince people who are brainwashed that Toyotas and Hondas are better built more fuel efficient cars. My 241hp V6 five passenger Impala gets 32mpg on the highway at a CRUISE CONTROLLED 65mph. What's a Prius get? 40-45? For a car with half the space and none of the comfort (yes I have driven and been forced endure a long trip in one) that is no achievement. Granted my Impala only gets 20mpg around town puttering about at an average speed of 24mph but if you go from your house to the market 12 times a week, please buy a Prius. If you travel with 2 adults and 3 teen kids, save $5000 and buy a large American car. Wait, people already are - 141,000 did last month. Don't confuse them with complex arguments with environmental impact of batteries, toxic metals or high energy construction. They honestly don't care. In their minds they made a "righteous" decision. Sounds more like a zealot similar to Bin Laden than free American. Can someone do a survey and see the average Kw-hrs that a Prius owner's HOME consumes? I am betting they are hypocrites when it comes cooling their sprawling mini-mansions to 68 degrees and running their "comfort devices at home". And don't ask about where they work or their wonderfully environmentally friendly vacations (i.e. resorts, cruises, summer homes). I know these people and generally they are idiots that would have run left when the herd ran right - becoming a predator's lunch. Alas we have no predators for idiot humans.
Reply
NotanIdiotRockStar 9:11AM (7/24/2006)
Dr Lester, for all his brilliance, is a confused and silly scientist. The idiotic notion that buying a Hummer funds Bin Laden is just left wing hysterical nonesense. Exactly how does buying a Hummer instead of a Hybrid help Osama? Is it because more gas is purchased? Last time I checked, we imported a majority of oil from Mexico and Canada. Saudi Arabia is next, but Bin Laden doesn't produce oil. If you really believe that OIL/GAS is helping to fund Bin Laden, you should just stop driving all together because your HYBRID takes gas too.
Reply
NotanIdiotRockStar 9:18AM (7/24/2006)
Spike, just how is Reason a tool if they accept money from Exxon? Is it because you say so or is there evidence to show that their research is biased.? Can you detail for me how Reason skewed their report because Exxon gave them a grant? A simpleton like yourself, that will quickly dismiss something just because a company you detest gave money to a LIBERTARIAN think tank, should take steps to fully comprehend someone's work first before they start to throw baseless accusations because of their raging hatred for an oil company.
Reply
Jon Dame 10:54AM (7/24/2006)
I'm not going to address the volatile subjects of the article, review or comments, just logic.
"CNW's study authors wrote that, "Our goal, again, is simply to look at what society has to pay for the energy needed to support various vehicles". Well, if they're serious, then what about the type of energy needed to drive around in a Hummer versus a Prius?"
It's amazing to see Mr. Blanco quote a line from the study, then immediately level a criticism at the study for something the study implicitly does not address, as the quote states. If we are going to debate such weighty issues as these, and we should, let us go about it with sound reasoning and judgement. Changing the subject in an attempt to prove a point helps no one and only serves to further confuse the issue.
Reply
MikeW 11:34AM (7/24/2006)
The 2007 hummer H3 with the five speed manual shift transmission gets just 15 city/20 highway, down from 16/20 because GM just increased the size of the inline 5 from 3.5 to 3.7 liters, instead of getting a 6 speed automatic or 6 speed manual.
Does anyone know anyone who actually 'killed' a battery pack from the current generation Prius?
The hummers sucks more than they have too, if the H2 (just under 6000 lbs, and the aerodynamics of a brick) had a 6 speed automatic the actual mileage would improve 10-15%
Reply