As of today, the EPA has not certified a single aftermarket kit or component to convert a gasoline engine to run on E85. Even the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition warns such a conversion is "extremely difficult." The group's Web site also says: "Technically speaking, converting a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel is a violation of the federal law and the offender may be subject to significant penalties."
Sound advice, yes? Yet, this story from a TV station in ethanol-friendly South Dakota makes an E85 conversion seem as simple as a 15-minute oil change.
The story focuses on kits manufactured by Flextek. A check of their Web site reveals that the kit is basically made up of a stand-alone CPU that plugs in alongside the factory engine-management computer. The consumer also gets a bottle of proprietary E85 Engine Preparation formula that "increases fuel mileage and helps offset mileage loss due to burning alcohol."
I'm not sure that simply adjusting the computer calibrations to pump more fuel (remember, ethanol has about 25 percent less energy than gasoline) and playing with the ignition timing makes a complete conversion. Here's what the NECV has to say: "The differences in fuel injector size, air-fuel ratio, PCM calibrations, material composition of the fuel lines, pumps and tanks are just a few of the components that contribute to making an E85 conversion extremely complex."
As far as I can tell from the Flextek Web site, there are no replacement parts for the vehicle's fuel system. There is one line of caution about having a "professional" check to see if the fuel pump is alcohol compatible. Some late-model vehicles may already have fuel lines made with alcohol-friendly materials, but I question whether older vehicles are truly compatible. Perhaps there's a GM Powertrain engineer who can go into detail all the changes that were made on the Chevy and GMC trucks to convert them to flex-fuel.
I searched for other stories on E85 conversion and found an SAE paper written by a University of Nebraska class that converted a 1999 Silverado pickup, which was the first year of the current GMT800 platform. The team members were very much aware that alcohol can lead to degrading and/or corrosion of fuel-line components and made numerous changes in the system. They also added larger fuel injectors to compensate for the additional fuel needed to perform.
Another concern I have about Flextek is the company's statement on the Web site that its kit will not void a manufacturer's warranty. The company refers to the Magnuson-Moss Act as the consumer's protection. In effect, that ruling says a dealer may not refuse to honor a warranty (no dealer can void a warranty!) if the consumer has installed an aftermarket part. But that's only if the aftermarket part did not lead directly to the damage in question. I can install a nitrous kit on my car and it won't affect warranty coverage if the heater blower burns up. But burn a hole in a piston and I'm back on the tow truck or pulling out my wallet. If there's an engine failure of any degree, and the dealer finds evidence of E85 in the fuel system, there can be grounds for not honoring the warranty. In this specific scenario, there's a legal question that may have to be resolved in court. I've worked with numerous SEMA companies on Magnuson-Moss scenarios, and the issue is much more complex than Flextek would have one believe.
Also, the Flextek Web site offers no testing or documentation that its system doesn't affect vehicle emissions. It simply quotes the Department of Agriculture that says alcohol burns cleaner than gasoline. Yet the EPA, according to the NEVC, discovered that alternative fuel conversions in the mid '90s "produced emissions that were worse than those of baseline gasoline vehicles." And those tests were with fuels that technically burns cleaner than gasoline. Independent, comprehensive tests, such as those required to obtain a CARB EO number, should be required on any conversion kit for specific engine families. At least the TV story offered a link to a story about emissions testing underway in Minnesota.
[Source: keloland.com]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
lance 3:24PM (4/20/2008)
What all of us are forgetting is that gas is going up whether we like it or not. e85 could be the answer or maybe not. No matter how you look at it we are going to run out of fossil fuels. As we get closer to being out of fossil fuels we are going to face higher and higher prices for it. If we continue to rape our planet we will eventually have nothing left. The big picture is that we are in a period of change. And as earlier was spoken we are the consumers and we are more powerful than corporations, in the end of it all what we buy is what someone wants to sell us. What you want to buy, someone wants your money, the more renewable energy we seek the more effort will be put towards developing it. If more people want e85 the more effort will be put towards its development. I personally am considering changing my vehicle to e85, but have not made up my mind on an appropriate energy source. I could go electric or bio-diesel. You can keep buying gas but eventually other options will be cheaper and you will be forced to convert. We all need to stop breading or start thinking of the future. What do you want to leave your family with famine, or a at best descent life?
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D.E.A.D. 8:17PM (7/15/2008)
reguardless of what the future holds as far as fuel,we have to improve what we have at hand.ive spent years building engines that made more power for race and street bikes.in that time ive also learned what it takes to get more miles to the gallon.today i try to combine both into a good product for the customer.we have no control on what fuel costs,but e can make changes to our engines to burn it more efficiently.and in my book that not only means higher mpg,but more torque and horsepower.it helps to complain to your congressman,but sometimes we have to do things on our own to change things for the better.thats one reason i designed the ALKYHAWG and GAZZHAWG performance packages for h-d styled engines.both deliver more power and better mileage.its my way of trying to make things better for fellow bikers.its a shame the auto industry doesnt try doing something good for their customers.i hope the oil companies are listening.so much for my opinion. tony m. dabbs, dabbs engineering and design
Ken 7:36PM (7/30/2008)
I'd like to convert one of my cars to E85 but the closest station I know of is over 200 miles away so not very practical. why do I hear on TV that ethanol is bad, it's no good? having worked fuels for the AF my concern would be water getting into the storage systems even in NM we would pull out about a quart a day in each tank. and that was after at least 2 filters so I can only imagine what the fuel in some of these gas stations look like. what do you do about E85 that gets to much water mixed in?
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azrael4h 6:51AM (2/16/2009)
The reason you hear on TV that E85 is bad is because you're watching a station that has been paid to say it's bad by big oil. Go find a station that's been paid by the Ethanol lobby to say it's good.
The News Media, scientists, and politicians are all the same; find out where they get their money and/or drugs; find out what their "opinions and beliefs" are. Or in the case of the "scientist", the results from their intense "research".
Roel M Magda 9:08AM (2/27/2009)
I dont know who you are and we have the same surname though i am a Filipino from the Philippines.Do you know what is the origin of Magda surname ? Are you an american? Is it concidentally that your surname is the same as mine I am not an American but a Filipino????
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Brian 9:36AM (3/06/2009)
I like the idea of E-85 not only because of its clean-burning and renewable properties but, its also a VERY cost effective alternative to expensive race fuels which generaly range between $6-$11 a galon depending upon the octane rating of the fuel. I belive the octane rating of E-85 is 114 using the R.O.N=M.O.N/2 method as opposed to the 93 octane "Premium" we can purchace at the pumps or the 100 octane "race fuels" avalible at a few gas stations. I still have yet to see a serious "preformance" engine that can thrive on only 100 octane.
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jedmec 8:52AM (5/12/2009)
Am i the only person trying to understand why 85% alcohol and 15%gasoline fuel constantly is only 20cents less than gasoline no matter what level the prices are at?
How is this not obvious price fixing by the gas companies the to keep ethanol
not economical.You have to have abound 20% cost reduction in E85 to make it equal in value to gasoline,not 20 cents.
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Jimmy 1:25PM (9/13/2006)
First, converting a vehicle to use a clean, renewable energy source is not scary :)
There are several E85 discussion forums where people have converted late model non-flex fuel autos to operate on E85. So far the anecdotal results have been very positive. This has been widely done in Brazil and should be repeatable in the US.
These kits are currently being independently tested by Minnesota State University, Mankato. They have not yet published any findings yet.
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loikll 1:49PM (9/13/2006)
Buying a new flex-fuel vehicle is one thing, but why on earth would you spend money to convert a gas car to E85? The E85 will certainly not save you money, and in fact will almost surely cost you extra money in fuel.
Spend money in order to increase your fuel bill?
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John 3:36PM (9/13/2006)
I think you are forgetting some main factors. First off the main difference between a standard vehicle and a Flexfuel vehicle is an O2 sensor to detect what percentage of Oxygen is in the fuel as to adjust the injectors. The cars do not use different injectors for flexfuel and standard vehicles. Auto companies do not change the emission system at all for Flexfuel so in the same sense the Flextek works the same as the Flexfuel vehicle. The addition of the engine treatment helps protect the engine and components from and acids that can come from Ethanol. This is the same formula as the original Slick 50 before Slick 50 changed their formula in 82 without telling the consumer. The engine treatment has been tested by the likes of Department of Energy, Nasa, U.S. Army, and many more. This info is found at Xcelplus.com which is the company that owns Flextek
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Jimmy 4:49PM (9/13/2006)
"would you spend money to convert a gas car to E85?"
Well, there are several possible reasons:
The choices for flex-fuel vehicles are quite limited. Currently the Mercedes C class is the only small car that is flex-fuel. So if you want (or have) something else conversion is the only choice.
For vehicles which require high octane fuel, E85 can present a saving over premium fuel.
Others have noted E85 in high performance tuned engines can give more power.
Of course, there is also the motivation to use and support a clean, domestic, renewable fuel.
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Andrew 11:36PM (9/13/2006)
Ethanol costs more per mile and is only around because of subsidies.
Maybe *maybe* you could save some money given the subsidies - but then you'd have to pay back the install cost, make up for install labor, and give up warranty, and risk hurting your engine.
Modern cars have large number of engineering hours used to give reliability and long life. Messing with your fuel system so that you can run on a more expensive, subsidized fuel is not a good idea.
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Johnny Manley 9:24AM (1/08/2007)
Most of the concerns I hear are related to converting late model vehicles and I can see that may be daunting to most non-technical folks. However, I own a 1968 Chevy 427 with 11:25:1 compression and E85 offers a "pump gas" alternative to $6 a gallon racing gas, lower emissions and eyeball-flattening, kidney-compressing performance. Many early model, high compression engines are now viable street machines again using E85. We have been racing with alcohol for years and all components are readily available for running a carbureted or injected alcohol fuel system and are easily installed by anyone who has ever built a hot rod. I will publish the emission specs on the 427 when they are available.
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thomas couch 7:53PM (2/21/2009)
currently , i am building a 12 -1 396 for my 67 chevelle, i want to run on e-85, could you send me any tips or info on alcohol engine building> thanks for your time
Bill Kramer 10:06PM (3/03/2007)
Why on earth would I spend a few extra bucks to convert an old gas hog to E85? Maybe because my 95' van releases 10 tons of greenhouse gases in the air every year. With E-85 I can reduce these emissions by a net 75%, because the CO2 released is then reabsorbed back into the growing corn or sugar based vegetation. It's the sustainable, revewable morally right thing to do. The choice is worth every penny and it seems the difference only amounts to a few pennies a tank which makes it a real no-brainer. Also, sounds like this thing really works, maybe the EPA honchos are getting a few grease backs from big-oil...nah, that could never happen.
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Adam 4:01PM (5/15/2007)
My Take on E85 fuel system wear in Non FFV's.
In 1988 mandates require auto manufacturers to be safe with E10 (10% ethanol) which everyone has been running for years. At this time, the use of vunerable rubbers, eaisly corroded metals, etc was minimized to allow safe operation of vehicles on 10% ethanol. Furthermore, Ehanol is typically only corrsive to modern fuel systems when it is exposed to water (ethnol is, unfortunately attracted to water and readily absorbs water). This is part of the reason all fuel systems are closed, no outside air (minimal) or moisture can enter the system when the gas cap is closed.
An acceptable figure for damaging moisture contect of E85 would be approximately 1%(over a period of time), thats about 1 pint of water would have to be consistently added to every 12.5 gallon tank of gas to obtain any appriciable corrosion in a fuel system 1988 or newer (personally I use 1996 is a benchmark for converting vehicles to E85 without substantial fuel system upgrades, also when OBDII was implemented but this is another subject).
The long and short of it is, fuel system (modern) are very robust, running E85 in a modern engine can be safely done (in my opinion, based on information available to me). After coverting my personal vehicle, a 1998 Toyota Tacoma, and 2nd hand reports of Subaru's running E85 for periords of 2 - 5 years or so, I have seen no physical evidence that rapid deterioration of a fuel system occurs in late model vehicles. One could thorize that over a period of 10 to 20 years an issue could generate but I don't expect to have my Toyota until 2028, it would be 30 years old and by then I hope there will be some better alternatives. Or I will have completely overhauled it anyway.
My experience is based on a Mechanical Engineering Degree and 2 years working for an injection company (several years ago) engineering department conducting durability testing on injectors and pumps.
People expect manufacturers to come out and certify that their cars will be ok but this is never going to happen, no one will take that kind of liability or potential loss of sales etc etc. Converting a vehicle is a personal decision that each person should make based on thier own judgement (and take responsibility for). There is an abundance of mis-information on the web going in both directions and I encourage everyone to weight each source carefully.
Real negative's of running E85
1. reduced mileage per gallon, anywhere from 5-30%, people with turbocharged or supercharged engines have been able to take advantage of higher octane ratings and optimize system performance (mileage, torque and HP) retaining up to 95% of their original fuel economy. In my Toyota 4cyl, I have been getting 18 mpg as opposed to 21-22, but the fuel has been consistently $1 cheaper so it's a win win for me, plus I like more of my money staying in the States.
2. Initially, you will experience the need to change fuel filters several times until all the garbage in the regular gasoline is cleaned from the system. I personaly consider this a good thing. It's not that hard to change a $10 inline filter, I like to cut them open and double check that there is not debris from fuel system parts, so far just sludge from the 125000 miles worth of cheap gas. Some people have had a fuel pump failure from the increased sludge coming out of the take while the E85 is cleaning things out, not common but still a possiblity.
3. When switching between the gas types, you will notice the cars computer taking some time to gradually change parameters, some say about 20 miles or several run cycles. (engine cycles involve the car warming up from cold, not just turning it on and off)
How does a Flex Tek or Full Flex conversion work?
Well, they both work off the same principal per my understanding. In a nutshell oversimplified explanation, a cars computer reads unbonded 02 (from the O2 sensor, go figure). Based on this reading, it just reads O2, nothing else, it assumes that unused O2 means there's more oxygen than fuel and therefore inefficient combustion. The only parameter that the computer can change is the fuel injector duty cycle. Great, why do I need a piggy back computer if the computer can add more fuel by itself. From the factory, computers can usually only adjust fuel rates by +/- 15% to accomodate changes in elevation, fuel quality, etc. Well, it's a fact that E85 contains 25-30% less energy so it stands to reason that about 30% more fuel is required for efficient combustion. So, this piggy back computer simply adds a predetermined (about +15% for this example) to the injector duty cycle. Now, your cars computer can easily adjust from 0 to +30% fuel to accomodate a range from regular unleaded up to E85. People will notice the gradual change in performace as the computer adjusts parameters, thats why it is recommended to run 50/50 mix of E85 and regular unleaded in between regular gas and E85, as the cars computer (OBDII) adjusts parameters gradually and remembers the previous parameters at each startup.
These piggy back computers acheive settings that "gearheads" have been doing for years when modifying and tuning cars but it takes all the guess work, trial and error, dyno time, expensive sensors associated with an expensive ECU or fuel system controller that most of us couldn't handle programming or installing...
E85 is a step in a right direction, easily used in Late model vehicles and even better when included as an OEM feature. The option warrents careful consideration by anyone interested in supporting our local economies, reducing dependence on forign resources, sticking it ot the man (oil companies realize 100 million dollard each and every day in pure profits), reducing polution, 70% at the tailpipe and a modest 20-30% when the entire supply chain is considered.
Interesting Fact, our tax dollars (through subsidies) pay farmers not to farm over 40 million arcres of agricultural land in the United States. Using modern technology and coservative estimates this land alone could alleiviate approximately 50% of US importants on oil. Yeah, the cost of beef might increase a little, so what, at least that money would stay here and our childrens childrens childrens would stand a good chance of having some resources left.
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Adam 2:51PM (5/16/2007)
One conversion manufacturer is claiming to have EPA approval, see this link.
http://www.intelligentethanolsystems.com/index.htm
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Adam 3:21PM (5/16/2007)
E85 is not subsidized as indicated in #5, this is false information. Current Federal subsidies go to refineries (thats big oil people) for the blending of regular gas with Ethanol. Like an oil refinery really needs more money? Ethanol is used to oxygenate gasoline in place of MTBE which was found to be really bad for us and the environment.
Some subsidies do go toward the installation of E85 pumps and other infrastructure through tax breaks mostly. This is good, as the infrastructure is the hardest thing in getting the biofuels industry moving. Another nice thing about Ethanol infrastructure is that it will be compatible with other Biofuels which will be much better like Butanol which is showing real promise, although with limited support.
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Shawn 3:17PM (7/01/2007)
I think people have forgotten that the first vehicles where made and designed to run on alcohol. Back when internal combustion engines where invented oil was to expensive to refine, yet alcohol was cheap and easy. The motors in our cars today are still based on the same engineering as they where then.
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Erik 5:06PM (7/26/2007)
Adam, you do have the ODBII installed on your truck, correct? I am curious because I also have a 2.7L inline 4 Toyota Tacoma (2001, Prerunner Double cab) that I am looking to convert to FFV, and I was wondering if the computer chips are actually effective.
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