AutoBlogGreen Q&A with Greg Frenette, Ford fuel cell chief engineer
Following a recent post about a short drive in a prototype fuel cell powered Ford Focus, some questions were raised in the comments comparing Ford's technology with that of Honda on their FCX fuel cell concept. AutoBlogGreen posed some of these questions to Greg Frenette. Greg is the Chief Fuel Cell Programs Engineer at Ford.
A reminder, the fuel cell Focus has been on the road for almost two years and the fleet has accumulated over 300,000 miles so far. The Focus that is on the road right now is a first-generation, road-worthy fuel cell vehicle. A next generation car is currently under development and will include many advancements and lessons learned from this first generation car. ABG's questions, Greg's answers and more pics are after the jump
Does the Focus use regen braking?
Yes the Focus Fuel Cell Vehicle takes advantage of regen braking.
How big is the battery pack?
I don't have exact dimensions but the Sanyo NiMH high voltage battery pack is packaged under the rear seat.
Can the car operate on battery or is just used for startup? The press material indicates that the car is a hybrid. What does that mean in the context of this application?
The vehicle does not operate on battery alone after start-up (unless the vehicle is in limp-home mode). The battery augments the fuel cell with additional power when the driver requires - example wide open throttle, etc.. This vehicle is truly a hybrid but uses a fuel cell in place of an internal combustion engine as you see in conventional hybrids. Implication of a hybrid design is that you have an additional power source to the fuel cell, can downsize the fuel cell, etc...
What is the approximate cost of a tankful hydrogen?
We use 4kg of H2 which is equivalent to 4 gallons of gasoline from an energy standpoint. The long term goal is that H2 cost no more than gasoline. I'm not sure what today's market prices are for H2 but I would guess the cost is currently running 2-3 times what you pay today for gasoline.
Are the brakes electro-hydraulic or electro-mechanical? The engineer I rode with yesterday said EMB but the press material says EHB. (An EMB system is completely dry and uses no brake fluid. Electrical actuators apply the individual corner brakes in response to the driver's application of the brake pedal. An EHB system uses a hydraulic actuator to apply brake fluid pressure that is applied to conventional hydraulic corner brakes.)
We're running a EHB system on all of the Focus Fuel Cell Vehicles.
The fuel cell components used in the Focus
The underside of the Focus fuel cell
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
NORMAND GIGUERE 2:15AM (5/12/2008)
Hello about THREE monts ago i went on a journey to make my fiance's dream come true..( TO DRIVE A RACE CAR ON A RACE TRACK) i have turned a 03 focus se into a circle track ( mini stock race car )
i actually purchased it in GA just about already to put on the track... i just needed to add a roll cage that i had gibbs motor sport design and install for me..
and a fuel cell... this is where all the trouble started....
i added an idlebrock fuel pressure regulator and a idlebrock fuel pump... along with a jaz fuel cell
car would start.. idle but had no get up and go as soon as you put the car in reverse or drive my 5yr old can walk faster than the car......
so i removed everything and re-installed everything
back to exactly how It was when i got it...
NOW THE CAR IS DOING THE SAME DAMN THING.....
runs rough.. and no ( balls )
please help this was a birthday gift but april 30th has come and gone and she has already missed 3 races
and the 6 track rentals i set up for her have come and gone also
any advice or info please would be appriciated
thank you
Normand and Cindy
401-369-4401
no area dealer will help me because it is a race car
i pray you can
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Chris M 3:21AM (5/12/2008)
Normand Giguere: The discussion here was on the Ford hydrogen fuel cell prototype car project, and a hydrogen fuel cell car doesn't use gasoline, or have any sort of piston engine. A hydrogen fuel cell is like a battery that gets its power from hydrogen fuel and air, and it produces electricity to power an electric motor that moves the car - no "suck, squeeze, bang and blow" like old fashioned gas cars.
I'm not sure what the "Jaz fuel cell" is, but I suspect it is really just a fancy fire resistant fuel tank, and isn't really a fuel cell at all. As for your problem, the engine is getting enough fuel and air to start, but something is restricting the flow of fuel or air, limiting power. Unfortunately, there are lots of things that can cause that problem, including clogged fuel filters, kinked fuel line, leaking or disconnected vacuum lines, clogged air filter, clogged fuel injector, jammed throttle linkage, bad fuel pressure regulator... I can't tell exactly what the problem is by your description, you need an expert mechanic to run some tests, track down the cause, and fix it.
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Clyde Gibson 11:26PM (11/03/2008)
I'm currently writing a paper on hydrogen powered automobiles and was looking for a primary source to back up my ideas. If you would kindly help me out by emailing me (chgibson@morrison.tec.il.us). I would like to ask a few questions that would support the use of hydrogen powered automobiles.
Clyde H. Gibson III
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Howard Lee Harkness 5:11PM (10/20/2006)
"We use 4kg of H2 which is equivalent to 4 gallons of gasoline from an energy standpoint. The long term goal is that H2 cost no more than gasoline. I'm not sure what today's market prices are for H2 but I would guess the cost is currently running 2-3 times what you pay today for gasoline." --Greg Frenette
1) From a weight standpoint, 4kg of gaseous H2 requires about 15-20 kg of containment to achieve more than 150 bar, pretty much wiping out any weight advantage over gasoline. Energy density per unit volume is about 1/3 that of gasoline, negating any volume advantage.
2) Current production of H2 requires putting in about 5-6 times the amount of energy recoverable by burning it (electrolysis is worse). This pretty much guarantees that the energy equivalent hydrogen will cost at least 5-6 times as much as gasoline for the foreseable future (except possibly with the use of nuclear power, in which case the use of hydrogen is 15-20 times as expensive as the direct usage of the same energy as electricity without the conversion step). The 2-3x guess is off by more than a factor of 2.
One thing that a 300 bar tank with 10 kg of H2 would be good for -- with minimal added componentry, it would make a REALLY effective terrorist weapon. With a bomb that could produce pressure levels 4-5 times the magnitude generated by Terry Nichol's puny fertilizer bomb, a single vehicle in downtown Manhattan could kill and injure nearly as many infidels, er, people, as one of the 9/11 aircraft did.
Using hydrogen to power automobiles is insanely stupid.
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Ron Fischer 5:41PM (10/20/2006)
I sincerely hope Ford and GM are considering the consequences of one of these vehicles 'going off' while leased to a public figure... especially some beloved public figure (famous Hollywood actor or politician).
Read your hydrogen lease agreement carefully...
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Rick 10:41PM (10/20/2006)
Why are the negative comments targeted at Ford and GM? Toyota, Honda, Mecedes Benz and many others have active hydrogen programs and all are working on overcoming the same obstacles.
I believe biofuels have a better chance at near term reduction of reliance on forign oil (BioDiesel from algea and ethanol from agriculture byproducts for example) but I am happy to see all efforts in oil replacement technologies...
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