EDTA Conference: Secret effects of EESTOR ultracapacitor info from ZENN Motor CEO
At the end of the day yesterday, I snagged a few minutes with ZENN Motor Company CEO Ian Clifford by the EDTA Conference refreshments table and posed the question that Darin left in the comments when I asked what readers wanted to know more about: what's up with this secretive EESTOR ultracapacitor?
Clifford didn't spill all the beans to AutoblogGreen (not enough truth serum on that table), but he did tell us some things that really whets our appetites for more information. The EESTOR technology is something totally new, it "just doesn't exist" right now. It's not lithium-ion or a chemical based battery (it's a solid state ultracapacitor). It is "a significant breakthrough." These tidbits we already knew (see these posts on The Fraser Domain and TreeHugger), but what's less known is how the EESTOR technology will change ZENN.
For one thing, Clifford said, this new power source will allow ZENN to quadruple the range and introduce high-speed charging to their Low Speed Vehicles (LSVs). ZENN will also be able to seriously look at a high-speed platform and make a highway-ready vehicle if the technology is as good as the hushed rumors suggest. Clifford said using EESTOR's tech would add less $1,000 to the cost of a ZENN car and return performance that rivals an ICE. ZENN also has dibs on the technology.
"We have exclusivity in the technology as well up to a 1,400 kilo curb weight, so that's a five-passenger mid-size vehicle and smaller," Clifford said, adding that ZENN has worldwide exclusivity to convert ICE cars to EESTOR electric vehicles.
But why take my word for it? You can hear Clifford yourself in this five-minute MP3 (about 1MB).
And Devin, I've got more information on another all-electric vehicle at the show, the Silverado EV conversion. That'll be up later today. In the meantime, what do you all think of the EESTOR tech? Is it another Segway, or a possible reinvention of the wheel?
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Luther Browning 2:08PM (2/29/2008)
Well it's February 29, 2008. Zenn cars are still powered by pb/acid cells. I'm about ready to call this a scam. Come on EESTOR prove me wrong.
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Luther Browning 2:07PM (2/29/2008)
Hi saneone, I once stood in the Franklin Institute and watched a lightning bolt split a log. The stored power came from a large bank of capacitors. The presenter said how may Farads were stored, it was less than 1. I do not remember the exact figure. I ask how big a 1 farad capacitor would be and he said bigger than a room. I can now go to the audio store and buy a 1 farad capacitor that I can hold in my hand. This is why when I read the patent from EESTOR I took it at face value. Their lack of meeting their deadlines is what makes me question their ability to produce what they said. While I am an engineer I do not have the background to determine if their patent is fact or fiction. This would have been such an important breakthrough in energy storage, I think my dreams overwhelmed my common sense. Too bad.
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Luther Browning 2:37PM (2/29/2008)
Am I going to have to eat my words? Lockheed Martin has seen the inside of their plant and liked what they saw. They did not see the capacitor system store and produce the power claimed. So I'm not eating those words yet. But I hope to. A little salt and pepper with some chocolate sauce.
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Barbra 4:22AM (3/15/2008)
This is in response to the comment that Zenn should be building a plant in China or licensing their technology. Why not build a plant in Detroit or some other United States city and provide decent paying jobs to its citizens and bring back the middle class.
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Jeremy 1:22PM (6/17/2008)
Does it seem too good to be true? Yes.
The fact is, however, regardless of the hype they've put into this, they've managed to convince some fairly large companies to sign with them, which I find difficult to believe they would be willing to do without a convincing demonstration performed by an uninvolved third party.
I'm not going to question the math; I can't. But I find it difficult to believe that EEStor can make claims that reputable, technology-savvy companies support without having at least some basis in fact.
The generality of their patent is concerning, but I wonder if one of their pending patents is describing a process to overcome the traditional limitations of supercapcitors, or, more specifically, the materials and/or manufacturing method that will yield results similar to what they are predicting.
I'm skeptical about the viability of their product, but I think rejecting it out of hand when the next year should show us results one way or another is asking for someone to shove it back in your face. Nothing more embarrassing to be the guy standing on his credibility saying "it can't be done" and six months later having to eat your words.
ZENN is supposed to be getting these supercapacitors shortly and incorporating them into their 2009 lineup of electric cars, due out towards the end of 2008. Let's see what happens.
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Timmay 1:21PM (11/30/2006)
"just doesn't exist" right now Eh'
I'd like to know how Sebastian Blanco would interpret this statement. Is it still just an idea or a working concept in his opinion.
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Mike Z. 2:32PM (11/30/2006)
35 Mile Range for a Zenn Car, a 4x increase is not something to brag about.
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Darin 2:56PM (11/30/2006)
Thanks a lot for posing the EEStor questions to the ZENN folks, Sebastian. (Very cool having a "remote control" correspondent! J/K)
Mike - the little I've read about the ultracapacitor sounds intriguing on points of cost & durability: If true, $1000 for 140 electric miles (in the LSV application) using an energy medium that doesn't effectively wear out would certainly be worth bragging about (when you compare it to ranges/battery durability of other vehicles used in similar applications).
Also, in the audio clip, Clifford claims they're looking at scaling up the technology to mid-size, higher speed cars with *IC range*.
All that said, I'll remain respectfully skeptical until the "imminent" 3rd party test results are released. Until then, it's no more than vaporware.
Also, until hearing this interview, I wasn't aware of ZENN's rights to EEStor's technology for conversions of existing ICE vehicles to EV's. As someone currently in the middle of a low-buck conversion of an old Metro to an LSV-comparable EV, I'm curious whether those rights would theoretically preclude use of the technology by private, non-commercial EV converters.
It'll be very interesting to watch this play out. I for one hope they can pull it off.
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George Lewis 2:19PM (7/11/2008)
From what I've been hearing that everything is going well with the eestor ultracapacitor. In fact, they're looking to have third-party validation of the technology in just a few months! You can find out more about all the electric and other vehicles coming out (and one that's available now) at: www.HiddenBuzz.com
CM 11:59PM (11/30/2006)
EEStor? Hmm, I seem to remember someone using that moniker about a year ago pestering the newsgroup alt.energy.homepower about an idea to put "grooves within grooves" on a capacitor plate to increase surface area, thus increasing storage. When others pointed out that current supercapacitors already use a highly textured surface for their plates, yet stored less power per Kg than lead acid, the poster ignored the evidence and continued spamming, much to everyones annoyance. And now we have these wild claims, with nothing to back them up. Makes me highly suspicious.
Unless this "EEStor" actually comes up with a working product that does what they claim, I'll remain highly skeptical.
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KC 5:35PM (11/30/2006)
It's great that Mr clifford has snatched a worldwide exclusive non-existent technology that may or may not ever live up to the hype. Here's hoping it does for your companies sake Mr Clifford. I hope your pipe dream technology wasn't dreamed up by some one smoking a crack pipe.
I hope you really get this down and change the world, lord knows batteries have a long long way to go before they are going to make a dent in the automotive power source market.
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Peter G 1:39PM (12/01/2006)
Zenn or Feel Good Cars?
This indicates Feel Good Cars has the exclusive and they manufacture the ZENN.
http://www.ccnmatthews.com/news/releases/show.jsp?action=showRelease&searchText=false&showText=all&actionFor=588932
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Ammocaby 1:09PM (12/01/2006)
If they could actually produce a decent electric car that has a 140-mile range, that would be perfect for some of us living in Hawaii. I could drive all the way around the windward side of O'ahu with range like that. This may be an answer to a question that was asked some months ago about Hawai'i being a good place to test the suitability of full electric cars.
That said, we in Hawai'i need to stabilize our electrical power grid. We didn't need the multi-hour (and in a few instances over 36-hour) power outages following the earthquake in October 2006. Luckily it didn't happen on a work day; if a bunch of electric car drivers had to charge their cars at that time, they'd have been out of luck.
Maybe this kind of unreliability of the electrical grid in times of crises added a possible new demand for electrical power for full electric cars will further encourage us to install of solar panels on peoples' houses to relieve the strain.
Nature can only hope...
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Sebastian 9:50AM (12/02/2006)
Peter,
Feel Good Cars was the old name. Now it's ZENN Motor Company.
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Peter G 8:50AM (12/05/2006)
Thanks for the info on the name change.
EEStor is revolutionary if it lives up to the hype. If there were a real high energy density,quick charge battery equivalent that lasted the life of the car, it would kill hydrogen fuel cell IMO.
I remain skeptical until they deliver something.
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Dan Frederiksen 7:22PM (12/11/2006)
very disappointing to hear they have exclusivity on conversions. how the fuck could EEStor do something that stupid. and last we heard of that contract it was up to 1200kg and now he's saying 1400. that's maybe half the cars in the world. wtf!!
a break through product given to a pis ant company before it ever comes to light. this better not be true
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James G 4:51PM (12/18/2006)
As a materials research engineer in Li-ion batteries and Ultracapacitors, I would be cautious to EEStor's claims.
I would say ,"Show me the moner"
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Dan Frederiksen 12:25PM (12/23/2006)
why james?
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Rob Matthies 12:56PM (12/28/2006)
Another new-old battery is the "revived battery" idea which we are going to use (should be the world's first electric pickup powered only by 'dead' batteries) for the all-electric GMC Sierra S-15. So, the battery cost is NIL, or pretty close to zero.
Here's the link to photo blogs..
http://electric-pickup.blogspot.com/
http://towing-s15.blogspot.com/
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CapacitorMan 9:27AM (1/18/2007)
I agree with James. After 30 years in the ceramic capacitor business, and a couple dozen patents, I think I can smell "fake". Their patents have technical, mathematical, and format errors that would be humorous if people were not losing money or "hitching their wagon" to a pretend horse.
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