What's the most obvious question to ask about the new Chevy Volt? Plug-in America's Paul Scott knows
Our readers are thankfully not being shy with their views and opinions on the new Chevy Volt. While the free-for-all is taking place in the comments on various parts of the site, AutoblogGreen is also hearing from a few professionals in the green car world on GM's plug-in hybrid. This morning we heard from Chris Paine, director of "Who Killed the Electric Car?" Now Paul Scott, of Plug-In America, a PHEV advocacy group, has let us know what he thinks of the Volt, and why GM needs to answer one important question. Here's what he had to say: While I applaud GM's newest entry in the EV game, I am concerned when they say the batteries are not yet viable. I would hope that the media would ask the most glaringly obvious question, "What are the specs for a viable battery for the Volt?". Once GM tells us what they are considering viable, then, and only then, can we determine whether they are serious. I say this because it's the opinion of many in the EV community that viable LiIon batteries exist today.
It was reported in the MIT Technology Review:
"GM says the timeline for commercializing the vehicles will depend on the development of the battery systems. But such systems may not be far off. GM representatives say that they have already seen lithium-ion cells that have the performance required for both plug-in and series-hybrid applications. What remains to be done is to combine these cells into large, complex battery packs and make sure they work well together in an actual vehicle. Last week, GM announced that it has a contract with two sets of companies for building lithium-ion-based battery packs and control systems for plug-in hybrids."
If all that remains to be done is combine cells, that have been deemed acceptable in terms of performance, into large packs, why does that take 3-5 years? Let's get the answers to these questions now.
Paul
The last time AutoblogGreen readers heard from Paul, it was when I spoke with him at the Alt Car Expo last month. You can listen to him at the link below. Read all about the Chevy Volt here (includes dozens of high-resolution images) and see all of our coverage of the Detroit Auto show here.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
a54 2:44PM (1/09/2007)
Perhaps GM's concern is producing a lithium-ion battery pack that will last 100,000 miles with minimum degradation? It could be as simple as that.
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a.b 3:18PM (1/09/2007)
After 100 years of research it's abouth time to realize battery are not good in any point. A fuelcell
with water recirculating as annonced by toyota 3 mounths ago is a better idea. No need to stop to refuel. Can do new-york to los angeles and come back
and with the use of a co2 filter it can filter the air inside the cabin and outside too.
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kert 4:05PM (1/09/2007)
GM could do 100+ miles on Ni batteries in EV1.
Tesla, AC Propulsion, Venturi can go 200+ miles in assembled pack of Li-ions. Hundreds of REVAs in consumers hands in London go 40 miles a day routinely on lead every day, with li-ion upgrade coming in 2007.
Several aftermarket plug-in conversions for Prius extend its range to near 40 miles.
RC hobbyists are pluggin A123 batteries into increasingly bigger packs and fast-charging them in 15 minutes every day.
How can GM, with a straight face, claim that the batteries arent there ?
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Tim Plaehn 4:34PM (1/09/2007)
Having sold GM commercial trucks for years, I can tell you the engineering process for any new item will take 3-5 years. They just do not rush the testing and engineering of any new product. I think this is a great car and can't wait to have a chance to buy one, but that 500 lb. battery runs right down the middle of the passenger compartment, and I am willing to wait while GM makes sure it is safe and reliable.
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Jimmy 6:35PM (1/09/2007)
"How can GM, with a straight face, claim that the batteries arent there ?"
Do you know of any manufacturer with a 5 year warranty on their Li-Ion battery ? GM is doing a 5yr/100,000 mile warranty now.
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mulad 1:12AM (1/10/2007)
I've been trying to figure out the reasons why GM can't do this now. Considering that they want a 16 kWh battery pack (from what I understand), that's about 30% the size of the Tesla Roadster's battery pack. If the Volt's battery pack was constucted in the same manner as the Roadster's, it'd weigh about 285 pounds. And, of course, it'd cost $20,000, right? ;-) I imagine that cost is the big factor preventing GM from moving forward at this point.
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kert 2:37AM (1/10/2007)
regular li-ion costs about $500 per kWh for the consumer, in small cells. 16 kwH can be had for $8K.
Im sure the likes of GM can have bulk pricing. And that is, in small cells. Large-format batteries should be significantly cheaper.
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Mike 9:04AM (1/10/2007)
I have worked in the auto industry for 15 years selling new technology to the OEMs.
Tim is right it takes years to launch anything in the auto business. Any new technology that is introduced on a new vehicle must be tested and
proven before it is approved for production. The batteries will have to pass environmental, crash, and durability tests. GM already has the specifications for their lead acid batteries, so they probably are reviewing those spec's to see if they are still relevant for other battery types.
The only way to do that is to test the new batteries. This will take time, like 6 months to a year. Then once it is approved they will issued a PO to the supplier. The supplier will then have to build the parts, which could involve securing the raw material contracts, building a plant, hiring workers, etc.
Nothing in this process is fast or easy, just because a company issues a press release saying their battery can do this or that doesn’t mean GM can order 100K of them tomorrow.
The people on this blog and Paul Scott need to get a realistic perspective on the auto industry.
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richard schumacher 10:09AM (1/10/2007)
The complementary question is, why not sell a version of the Volt without batteries? Use the weight savings to install a larger motor and GM would have a low-emissions 50 MPG muscle car.
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richard schumacher 11:07AM (1/10/2007)
Oops, my brain fart: the Volt would need a relatively small battery for acceleration from a standing start and for regenerative braking. In other words give up the 40 mile electric-only requirement until better batteries are available. This would make it a pure series hybrid, potentially with higher performance than a Prius, and one which GM could start selling very soon.
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Tim 10:54AM (1/10/2007)
9. It's in the way electric motors in vehicles most efficiently work. They need a power reservoir to pull from during acceleration and a place to put power generated while braking. In any case, #4, & #8 are right. Even if the battery tech was ready for production right now, it will take GM 2-3 years to bring this vehicle to market. The fact that Lutz said 2-3 years makes me think the batteries are closer than they are telling us. If you want to be known to work miracles, always give very conservative timelines and come in under them. This is one place where being conservative saves lives! As long as there is hope for this vehicle, I won’t buy another car. E-flex is simple. E-Flex is light. E-Flex is adaptable. E-Flex is inexpensive. E-Flex is robust. E-Flex is studied. E-Flex is not new. http://www.hypercar.com/ E-flex is the future of personal transportation!!
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Dean 11:03AM (1/10/2007)
Don't forget that they also need time to ramp up the dealers' ability to service these cars. Someone buying a Tesla roadster as a toy is going to have different expectations than the person that needs to get to work every day in their Volt. Service techs are used to working on ICE's and conventional systems (brakes, HVAC, etc.), the Volt takes all of those and changes them. While there will be similarites, they will stll have to learn to diagnose control systems, regenerative braking systems (with electronically controlled hydraulic assist), electric motors, battery systems, etc. Besides the battery technology, this is what makes the difference in getting the Volt to consumers.
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kert 1:45PM (1/10/2007)
The entire argument that battery testing, qualification etc takes time is basically rubbish because of .. wait for it .. EV1. GM did it, it has the data, NiMH batteries are still available. Gen2 EV1 did 130 miles a charge with NiMh.
All tested, ready to go. If its "difficult to do on NiMh" just decrease the electric-only range and do it anyway, while waiting for Li-ion to be ready and qualified.
BTW, A123 lithium batteries arent just "claimed in a press release" by a company. Those have been in hands of the users, powertool and RC community for a while now, and all the important operating aspects ( power density along with quick-charge capability, cycle life , safety ) have been verified independently a hundred times over.
The only thing GM can hide behind is development of battery management system for pack consisting of small cells, which makes them incompetent wusses as AC propulsion did this years ago for tZero and their tech is shipping in three production vehicles, the Venturi Fetish, Tesla Roadster and their own E-Box/Scion.
Large format li-ions are available from very few manufacturers so far, but those arent a necessity, but rather a "nice-to-have".
So once again, WHEN and why not NOW ?
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Michael 6:23PM (1/10/2007)
And how much does a Tesla Roadster cost? $100,000. A Venturi Fetish? $460,000.
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mulad 6:36PM (1/10/2007)
Digging through more articles, I've scrounged up a little more about the specs they want for a battery pack. First, I'm sure, is cost. I don't know what their estimates are if a 40-mile pack was made with current technology, but I suspect it'd be in the $10,000+ range. I'm sure they'd want it to be about half that cost.
I don't think weight is an issue, though it's been mentioned in a few places (they say they want the weight below 400 pounds, yet it appears a suitable Tesla-style battery pack could be made for less than 300).
Reliability is a concern of theirs, and that's definitely an issue if you're talking about a full-production vehicle. They want it to last 10 years and 4,000 charge cycles.
Then there's safety. From what I've seen, the Tesla folks seem to think their battery pack is safe enough. But, I suppose that for GM, a company burned by safety issues in the past, "safe enough" doesn't cut it.
Still, there's little reason why they couldn't make an initial model with a battery pack that's just a fraction of the size (my commute is only about 5 miles round-trip, so I could get by with a 1/8th pack just fine), producing a car that's more directly a hybrid which still gets well over 50 mpg for those with longer commutes. And heck, if someone wants to pay the $10k premium for a full battery pack, I say full steam ahead!
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Tim 6:55PM (1/10/2007)
Kert- A power tool is not a car. People don’t ride around in power tools at 70 mph in heavy traffic! I don't think GM can stand another screw-up here. Yes, the world needs E-Flex NOW, but GM must also get it right the first time. If one child burns up in a battery fire the press feeding frenzy could kill the electric car forever! GM must build it RIGHT, build it SAFE and build it FAST! THE HEAT IS ON
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Jack 8:21PM (10/10/2007)
The comments on "NiMH batteries are here" seems valid. Rather than a hybrid, I would prefer all electric (plug-in) being charged by a variable fuel, small engine with the electric motor doing all the driving. Also, I have read that the Volt is smaller than a Prius?? Can anyone comment on that? I have also read that the cost should come in "at about $20,000." (The first estimate was "under $30,000.") My fear is that the dealers will do their usual greed thing and start applying premiums. That could hamper things. When the car hits the market, I hope the manufacturers will control their dealers.
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