"I blew up my 2008 F350 on biodiesel"
A biodiesel user who is part of the San Francisco Biofuels group recently blew up his truck, a brand-new Ford F350. It's quite a story, and he's given AutoblogGreen permission to relay his tale to our readers, who I think will enjoy this heartbreaker. Here's Peterson in his own words:
"I supposedly blew up my brand new $55k truck, with just 200 miles on it, running B99. I say supposedly, because I can't believe it was a fuel problem-but Ford is sticking me with $17k bill for a new engine (major labor required to remove cab etc..). They tested the fuel at two labs and said I violated the warranty (which says no more than B5). I am meeting with the engineer that was flown out from Dearborn to examine the problem today, so I hope to get some technical background on this. ... I have been running B99 in my other cars for 2 years. I'm a farm kid, and fairly comfortable around machinery, and have never had any problems with them. To my understanding, biodiesel has a higher flash point and I can't understand how one blows up an engine on a vegetable-based fuel. Ford markets the ultra-low-sulfur engine as the cleanest in the industry. I ran B100 in my 2004 F25- for 2 years-a similar, high performance PowerStroke."
A bit later, he posted the coda:
"So here's the ending to the 'blown up' brand new truck saga I posted last week. ... Within minutes of posting, I received tons of helpful input ... to test fuel and eventually even legal documentation that Ford could not extend their warranty to cover third parties, and thus not honor (the now 20k) in warranty work. Armed with these questions, and the fact that as long as it was spec fuel, I was covered legally. I went in to siphon fuel out of the tank. Skip several interesting exchanges later, Ford scrambled and is now covering everything-and has even offered to take the truck back and sell me a new one (mine had only 200 miles on it). Next, I found out that Ford just offered a massive recall for injector problems that create a hydrolock that produces white smoke and can cause a massive bang-exactly what happened to me.... The whole things seems to have been a ploy to cover up something they eventually had to admit to on a massive scale. Go Ford."
UPDATE: OK, this story has gotten a lot of attention. Thanks for that. If you're interested to know more, the truck owner in question has been reading the comments and posted himself (see #24). Feel free to add your own if you have a question for him.
[Source: SF Biofuels]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Norm 5:01PM (1/27/2008)
Next time you buy a vehicle, READ THE MANUAL!! I own a 2008 F-250 - it was made very clear in the Ford Owner's Manual that B5 is the highest biodiesel percentage that can be used in the new 6.4L. Ford should sue you for wasting their time and causing future truck prices to be higher because of your inability to simply READ the manual !! Future Ford owners should not be penalized for your ignorance! There is nothing worse than paying for other people's ignorance ! FORD: DO NOT FIX THIS MORON's TRUCK !! Teach him the lesson he needs to learn and keep future prices down by not caving to frivoloius nonsense.
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FillmoreFuels 10:25AM (3/04/2008)
It is great that Ford eventually came to there senses and paid for the repair. I have heard other stories of people getting ripped off by the dealership because they use bio-diesel. This story sounds like a big one because of the price, I usually hear stupid things like dealers trying to place blame for bad brakes on bio-diesel or something similar.
Most diesels even the new ones will have no problems running bio-diesel in them. I have a 2006 duramax and I have had no problems running bio-diesel. The most important thing with diesels is keeping your fuel clean, free of water, and changing out your fuel filter at required intervals.
I have even used straight veggie oil with no problems. If you make your own bio-diesel you should have no problem if done correctly and if you filter and dry your fuel completely. Its not a complex thing to make bio-diesel just a little common sense and reading.
If a car maker can't produce a diesel vehicle that can't handle bio-diesel, then maybe they shouldn't be in the business of building diesels. Diesels should be built strong enough to with stand a multitude of fuels and last a long time that is there purpose.
http://www.fillmorefuels.com
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Mr Splatter 6:19PM (4/10/2008)
This has been a very interesting read. Both the complete forum fools, they all have them, and those trying to truly impart some reasonable commentary and information. I ran across it while looking at the option of introducing biodiesel into use on my new ’08 F-250.
I must say I am limiting that thought to a later date based upon what I have read.
I am not new to the Ford line of diesel; I just came out of a 2003 w/ the 6.0. I must be the only 6.0 owner that never had a days worth of trouble in the 150K miles I owned it. Regular service, a good quality fuel additive every other tank and ran like a dream. I am also not new to recall/manufacturer issues having had to sue Dodge twice to replace trucks with defective transmissions. (that’s why I’m not driving Dodge now) If the 6.4, with all its EPA comprimizes, ends up being a problem child then I will certainly be looking to see proper compensation is made just as the gentleman who started the story above. If FORD proves it was the B99, than its is a no brainer, the fact that they took care of this after some pressure went to bare indicates that FORD doesn’t believe it was the fuel. (They don’t roll over that easily from my experience). Perhaps FORD did not want it getting out that you cannot be “Earth Friendly” in one of their diesel trucks while they are pushing so hard to make “Green” sales like all the other makers.
I would love to give bio fuels a chance, I would love to know that the investment I made in my F-250 is up to the task of making things better and I would love to know that FORD was forward thinking enough to have looked at this issue before putting another “problem” on the street. (I would love to open my door and find REBA standing there with her bags too)…Oh we can dream.
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Eugene 1:25PM (6/06/2008)
The point is this. Under the Magnusen-Moss warranty act it is essentially illegal to state that a car owner must do something for which there is an equivalent option that can save that person money.
For instance you can change your own oil with an appropriate grade you buy anywhere you choose instead of paying the dealership to do it with car-brand fluid....
It would appear that the Big 3 are in cohoots with Big Oil. Now that gas prices are at over 5 dollars for Diesel, I am sure of it. Also they claim that they can't make an all gas fuel efficient engine that gets 50 mpg and meets modern emission standards, yet in 1993 Chevy/Geo put out a three cylinder Metro, that is a very decent quality powertrain and boasted in the 40's city and over 50 highway. So it's all BS and a way for them to get you to buy hybrid technology which costs way too much and makes them a ton of profit.
I can say this: Biodiesel cannot void a warranty, because it is equivalent. Dr. Diesel made his diesel engine to run on peanut oil. Almost any oil including engine oil and transmission fluid will work fine. The problem is the level of contaminants, and viscosity.
I am very unhappy with the Big 3 for deceiving the public about these issues. I believe that all of these vehicles are compatible with a whole host of fuels that are not even in use-- and not just Biodiesel per se.
The seals that are in Diesel engines are completely compatible with Biodiesel, this is just another example of a deception perpetrated by Ford and GM to keep people from making their own fuel. The problem is not Biodiesel but diesel in general that causes problems with certain types of rubber, Gunther, you have it 1/2 right there.
All of the evidence actually shows that the lubricity of Biodiesel is excellent, and actually better for the injectors, and it has the added benefit of lower emissions. And it cleans your entire fuel system much better than petrodiesel. So I really want the Big 3 to publish engineering data to contradict known facts.
I have seen people stress that only Viton is compatible, but Buna-N is for the most part acceptable as well. Again there is a lot of variability in the quality of rubber over the years, but now things are much more consistent from manufacturer to manufacturer.
So it's really important for all of us to band together not to accept this phony baloney and dishonesty. We must demand what is right and good for the future of motoring.
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Peter 3:08PM (6/06/2008)
Biodiesel is not 100% compatible. It has issues with gelling in the cold which would put more stress on injectors. Doubly so, if this is someone backyard batch of BD.
It is also a stronger solvent and can be hard on rubber seals. If you warranty says nor more than B5 and you use B99, I would consider your coverage void. Nice that they stepped up on this one.
But people actually do need to pay attention to the limits. No B99 or E85 in cars not designed for it. You may get clogged injectors or premature seal failures.
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Aaron 2:11PM (6/14/2008)
I am a Ford Powerstroke technician. We have been trained and it is VERY WELL DOCUMENTED IN OWNERS LITERATURE - Ford DOES NOT ENDORSE USE OF BIODIESEL IN PERCENTAGES ABOVE 5%.
If you're STUPID enough to run 99 or 100 in a BRAND NEW truck that CLEARLY SPECIFIES: ULTRA LOW SULFUR DIESEL ---ONLY--- you deserve to pay the price. We have a common test to determine the type of fuels. Place fuel in a clear glass jug and place it in the freezer. The bio will freeze and separate from the mineral diesel fuel. Easy as hell to determine what concentration of bio you are running. I'm all for saving the environment, but I refuse to repair stuff for warranty cost when it is clearly customer abuse or ignorance that has caused the failure.
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Aaron 2:32PM (6/14/2008)
In addition, there are REQUIRED FLUID TYPES for certain engines. Low Ash CJ-4 oil is REQUIRED in trucks using a diesel particulate filter. If this oil is NOT used, damage to emissions control components WILL occur.
Manufacturers have EVERY right to specify what fluids are used in their equipment.
Usage of the improper fluids CAN and WILL void warranties.
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BG 12:31PM (6/17/2008)
Manufacturers have the right to set specifications for the fuels that run in their vehicles. If a fuel meets every specification then it should not void the warranty. The ASTM D2 Committee constantly tests fuels and monitors (and changes if necessary) these specifications, including Distillation, Flash Point, Viscosity, Sulfur and Nitrogen Content, Wax Content, Cloud Point, Pour Point, etc. ASTM has for many years been involved in the development of the specs for biodiesel just so issues as this can be avoided.
Not allowing fuels that meet every manufacturer's specs only makes the specs suspect.
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SkyFlyer 4:45AM (8/03/2008)
I'm using BioDiesel and I'm very happy with my choice!
WWW.BIODIESEL-INFO.NET
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Ray 8:53AM (8/09/2008)
Yeah, i run a toyota hilux 2.8 diesel, only a toy to what you guys run, but interesting reading your comments on biodiesel, this has nothing to do with blowing motors up, but interesting anyway.
I had a slight leak coming from my injector pump, somewhere between the pump and the motor, as it is an all so tight fitting i could not see where it was coming from, at the time i was using standard diesel.
After changing to biodiesel, the leak has stopped ?????, the motor idles and runs smoother, easier to start and doesn't have that diesel smell that you get.
Please don't tell me my motor will blow up soon, as most fuel outlets downunder (AUS) are changing to biodiesel.
At the moment i am happy, but it is great that Ford came to the party with the guys vehicle - goodluck all.
Ray
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Kevin 1:09AM (10/05/2008)
Using B99 in a new diesel pickup.This a good idea?I would not.
Not until after the breakin ..
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Tom 7:43PM (11/06/2008)
What about using #2 farm Diesel in the new 2008 F350 it burns a little hotter. But I am on a farm and need to put more diesel in the truck in the field some times, will this hurt the new 2008 engine.
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Uncle B 6:41AM (1/01/2009)
Bought a "Rusty Pinto" and it was my last Ford product ever! Drove VW diesels for over 700,000 miles, filled the tank with "whatever" never had a problem! Admit to changing a few very expensive fuel filters but that is it! My "American Dream" ended with the Pinto and my brown spot hasn't hurt since!
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Mike W 12:28PM (1/14/2009)
I don't know much about biodiesel, but I have a 2008 F350 and I too "blew-up" my engine. At 42000 kms I hydro-locked a cylinder at highway speeds - the result: warped heads, broken flex-plate, missing glow-plug! Warranty covered the $20,000CAD repair.
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Mihaela Buculei 2:30AM (5/16/2009)
It is well known that you can use only 5 to 20 B .Over that concentration it creats gums that blow up you pump, injectors .So why don't you read a little bit before using something?
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Ryan Allen 12:21PM (5/28/2009)
I have been running B20-B99 in my 2006 F250 6.0, 2 Cummins and 1 johndeer engine for about 6 months now with no problems until yesterday. my check engine light came on in my truck so i took it to the dealership and they took a look at it. they call me back and say it needs a new turbo but its covered by my warranty. when i go to pick it up i was talking to the head diesel mechanic, who i am friends with, and he days that the turbo failed because of the biodiesel i have been using. he said that most dealers wolnt cover it but since we were friends he would keep fixing it. I have heard that the 2006 6.0 powerstrokes had alot of turbo problems and i think that they are just trying to put the blame on the biodiesel. i also had problems with the innercooler splitting off my radiator. i do pull alot of heavy equipment so i figured that might be it too. my truck only has 71000 mils on it. any one have any turbo problems?
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Uncle B 8:07AM (7/24/2009)
Toyota 1 take note! Americans want diesels! Diesels that burn bio-fuels! Small option may corner market! Do your Thing Japanese engineers, outsmart the smug bastards that write bullet-proof warrentees to cover their asses, and give 'ole Yankee Doodle Dandy just what he wants for his money!
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Fuzbal7318 12:33PM (10/12/2009)
So I'm trying to get a truck and personally I like Fords, I was thinking since I'm at college i could get the used vegetable oil that they use. But i stumbled upon this blog and i started second guessing my self. Can I or can't i put refined vegetable oil in to my diesel truck with a converter kit, and can i still run regular diesel trough it with the converter in place?
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Montana 12:10PM (5/02/2007)
I just bought a new 2008 F450, and I am looking into making my own biodiesel...do you think after the recall I will have any problems running B99 or 100 in it...If so what mods should be made to run on this? Thanks.
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pdx 12:40PM (5/02/2007)
Montana:
If you make your own, I would be very very careful.
I would hesitate to put home-brew in such an expensive vehicle. In this guys case, he was lucky because the problem ended up being something that was big and hugely public.
But anything over B5 *does* void warranty for any *fuel related problems*. The burden of proof is on the manufacturer to *prove* it was the fuel that caused the problem.
That doesn't mean that it won't be an expensive battle and a long drawn out hassle on your part if something happens.
If you buy biodiesel from a reputable source, they become your ally in the issue - and many companies will even guarantee their fuel.
But if you make it your self, you have nothing of the sort. And making biodiesel can be very error prone, and it is best to use in a vehicle that is tolerant of fuel variances. Most new diesel engines are highly electronic and highly pressurized and less able to deal with a bad batch of fuel.
Until you have your processes down and tested your fuel better, I would stick to older less expensive "test" vehicles.
Having said that, there are millions of miles on B99 in modern high pressure electronic engines. The actual risk is quite low. Despite what manufacturers and the oil industry would have you believe - there is very little risk in using high blends of biodiesel and most likely more benefits than risks.
B20 would probably be a better bet until you have more experience...
Your mileage may vary. Use this as information only, at your own risk.
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