The Truth About Cars: Hard-core EV freaks and eco-poseurs are going to love the Tesla
The first time that The Truth About Cars wrote about the Tesla Roadster, the results were less than thrilling to fans of the electric sports car. They have since decided that the vehicle is worthy of another of their editorials. This time, how will their readers react?
In this latest editorial, the fundamental issues of electric vehicles are considered: range and speed. The article mentions that electric cars already have quite a history behind them, from the early 1900s all the way until the GM EV1 hit nearly a century later. The article focuses on the perceived shortcomings of using lead-acid batteries and rehashes all of the known questions surrounding new advancements in lithium ion batteries. Those known questions, oddly enough, surround the unknown quantities of the batteries, because they have yet to see widespread use in electric vehicles.
Their conclusion? "Hard-core EV freaks and eco-poseurs are going to love the Tesla, despite the fact it doesn't have room for a suitcase or a couple of bags of groceries."
[Source: The Truth About Cars]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Altairian1 8:08PM (6/15/2007)
If it's not AltairNanosafe powered(like the Lightning from UK)it is "minor League" stuff.
Sorry Tesla,soft-core wimpy laptop bats on wheel does not cut it.
Nanosafe is the real deal and sofar Lightning to rule the sportEv arena.
The(safe) Altairnative is clear: Nanosafe.(period)
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Kardax 10:45PM (6/15/2007)
Altarian1: It amuses me that you think something that's imaginary (the Lightning) is superior to something that's real (the Tesla).
Dreams are powerful, I suppose.
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Altairian1 4:55AM (6/16/2007)
One man dream is another one nightmare ,is it not?
The Lightning will strike soon.
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Tony Belding 9:14AM (6/16/2007)
Even if it lives up to expectations (no working prototypes have been tested yet), and even if it were to become available in the USA (which seems unlikely), the Lightning GT is going to sell for about $300,000. That is definitely not on my shopping list.
By comparison, the price of the Tesla is high but not bonkers, it's actually well priced for the kind of car it is.
I honestly don't understand the excessive hype over the Altair batteries. Their energy density is a disadvantage, and their cost is a much bigger stumbling block. I'm hopeful the costs will come down, but we aren't there yet. They can be charged quickly, but only using very special equipment; it hasn't yet been shown whether that can be practical in everyday use.
I think it's likely that either the Altair or the A123 batteries, or both, will come to be used in electric cars successfully after their cost is reduced and a few other issues are sorted. I think it's very likely that Tesla will be on board with that when it happens. I also think, as previously noted, that we aren't there yet. Give it some time!
And of course there is EEStor lurking in the background, with the potential to make all li-ion cells obsolete.
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Phil L. 8:43AM (6/16/2007)
It seems to me that "the battery technology that finally makes practical EVs possible" has always been 3 to 5 years away.
So: When can I actually purchase an AltairNanosafe battery and hold it in my hands? I'd like to buy some (on my working-class salary) for a conversion project.
Meanwhile, the Tesla is neat - but will suffer the same fate as all high-performance, two-seat cars, regardless of what powers the drivetrain: They are toys for the wealthy.
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Tony Belding 9:30AM (6/16/2007)
To Phil L. . . . I don't know why so many people feel the need to deride the Tesla Roadster as a "toy for the wealthy". Do you also snurl your nose at Porsches and Ferraris? Do you condemn them as some sort of immoral waste of resources that otherwise could be spent on providing cheap people-movers for the proletariat?
Tesla never claimed the Roadster was a car for John Q. Public. They would be the first to admit it's not, and I think it's fairly evident to everyone that it's not, so why rub our nose in that fact?
The fact that Tesla can create a car of this type, with price and performance more than competitive with gasoline-powered powered cars in the same (admittedly specialized) niche, speaks volumes about the potential for electric cars to become viable, and even to reach the mass market within a few years -- I'd guess five to ten years at most. That's great news, that's something to celebrate! And yet, there's always somebody in the crowd who has to bitterly condemn them for not achieving that goal NOW (often with the implication that if they aren't affordable now, surely they never will be).
I don't get it.
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FrankBank 11:10AM (6/16/2007)
I am I the only one that thinks that Tesla is a marketing phenomena or darker? And after it all boils over, this is an AC Propulsion T0, (no cars really made) or a second gen 1999 EV1 (300 cars made, later killed, and a lot of cash burned (or buried).
Tesla is a rich man's toy as the centerpiece of a money-losing proposition - A limited-range, 2-seat car. Small market, not enough to 1) recoup costs or 2) have any real effect on FE.
With the controlled hype and blog amplification, Tesla is awash in money and accolades without doing much more than talking about a 10 year old proposition and some kit car level hobby work. If I had my hands on that cash and the liabilty of trying to fulfill the Tesla mirage, I would be looking at "vacation" property in Bolivia.
No societal benefits: 1) No technolgy contribution - an huge ungainly string of quick to deteriorate notebook batteries in a Lotus chassis. 2) Energy not really saved at all because owners use them as a hobby, not as transporation. Alternate hobbies without a Tesla include fly fishing or RC helicopters.
Being "Green" requires the credible potential for an actual measurable effect, doesn't it?
New vocab word for our age, "Greenscam": Pr campaigns and new business ventures capitalizing on well meaning, naive and gullible environmental/technical enthusiam in the old and the new media. See perpetual motion, and EV sportscars, "Hydrogen Economy".
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siry 1:19PM (6/16/2007)
FrankBank
If your criteria for progress is "credible potential for actual measurable effect" then I think Tesla qualifies.
Have you asked yourself why no carmaker is already selling fleets of low-cost, practical EVs? It isn't a conspiracy. It is for the practical reason that the technology is only now on the verge of being feasible. Every large carmaker would tell you that among all of the challenges, the two that are largest are 1) battery technology, primarily as relates to the energy density required for an adequate range and safety and longevity of the system, and 2) cost.
Tesla has made significant advances in the battery system technology. Some people don't understand that as progress because we choose to use commodity cells and build the safety and longevity into the overall system. There is a white paper on our website that you can read.
Tesla chose to develop a high end sportscar as our first car because, like any new technology, it is expensive. In addition, you can capture the imagination of people as to the possibilities of EVs as beautiful, high performance vehicles with this type of car. Hence, the first car is at a higher price point. This will enable us to build the next car, which will have a different set of features at a lower cost. The volume from that car will enable us to fund a mass production, lower unit costs car, and hopefully by then the technology will have come down sufficiently in cost.
Let me posit this - if we were truly trying to "greenscam" and take advantage of the current interest to make a quick buck, we are doing a really bad job. Why would we be investing money is building stores? Why would we be investing money in our second car, which we won't sell until 2009 at the earliest? Why would we hire hundreds of engineers and manufacturing people? If you really look at our actions, any reasonable person can easily see what we are trying to do is build a real car company that will develop high volume cars in the future. That takes a lot of work and there are many steps on the way. The Roadster is the first step.
If Tesla were a true "greenscam" company as you suggest, we would be traded on the OTC bulletin board so that we could have our stock options be liquid, we would issue press releases at least once a week, we would issue millions of shares to generate operating capital and pay ourselves large salaries (which we don't, I can assure you ), and we would have a handful of employees and minimal infrastructure because that would be a waste of time and money.
I can understand the skepticism of some, because there are such companies out there, who are also discussed on the same blogs as Tesla. I have faith that people will be able to discern between real and fake (which is part of the reason we try to be transparent and put as much information as we can out on our website), and I also know that when we have hundreds and then thousands of our cars driving on the streets very soon this entire argument will be behind us :)
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Bill 3:22PM (6/16/2007)
Aren't the Altair batteries significantly more expensive than Tesla's "use the common laptop cell" approach?
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Chris M 4:22PM (6/16/2007)
I suspect that "the truth about cars" is simply acting as a propaganda arm for the major oil and auto companies, considering the lies they spread to try and stifle any alternatives to Big Oil and Detroit.
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Tony Belding 5:55PM (6/16/2007)
I don't think TTAC is part of any conspiracy (certainly not on behalf of Detroit, since TTAC trashes the Big Three regularly). I think there is one person at TTAC who has an irrational antipathy toward Tesla, for reasons it is probably best not to speculate about.
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TG 7:03PM (6/16/2007)
Phil said...
4. **It seems to me that "the battery technology that finally makes practical EVs possible" has always been 3 to 5 years away.**
Excuse me;
The practical EV is with us now and has been since the mid 90s.
The Rav4 EV and the EV-1 are practical for millions who live in small towns and drive about 40 or 50 miles daily.
The vast majority who owned these vehicles and their limited 135 mile range just loved them. That equates to practical.
A used 35K Rav4 EV sold on the net recently for about 65K. Somebody thought it was practical.
If the EV market had been allowed to flourish naturally many of us could be driving second hand EVs today.
Heck, I would buy a used Rav4 EV running on Gel-Cells today if the price were reasonable.
There are first class ways to travel Looong distances and they are safer and cost less than using the family SUV. = TG
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FrankBank 9:28AM (6/17/2007)
Siry,
Thanks - it's settled then, "greenscam" is both a verb and a noun!
The choice of 2 passenger car guarantees lots blog attention and no measurable effect. As far as credible goes, the whitepaper is a collegiate level techno-apology for why we should expect any kind of reliability or safety from thousands of laptop batteries strung together. (" People, I need 2000 words on laptop EV pack reliability by Tuesday, grammar counts!")
Well written , I will grant you that, well enough to keep investment coming. But no impedance, no circuit model, no circuit stability simulation results, no FMEA results, no thermal test data, no real anything. You could see how folks less vested in a positive outcome than yourself would see the greenscam in this.
If you are not in on the money, I am sorry to hear. But In the final analysis, a good moral compass would tell you it is better to be on the naive side of the greenscam than the money side.
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Phil L. 5:56PM (6/17/2007)
Tony -
No, I don't deride Porsches and Ferraris. But they are still toys for the rich. I enjoy looking at them, but have little hope of ever driving or owning one.
At least there is some tradition of technology developed for performance sportcars dribbling down to something I can actually afford. I believe that will happen in the EV world - but have seen precious little evidence of it yet (like something I could test drive at a dealership near my home today).
I don't mean to condemn Tesla - but if EVs are to be a big part of our transportation future (I believe they are), someone has to be pushing the technology down to the lowly masses. I celebrated Tesla more when their plans for other models looked promising. Now that they've gone vague on us, I'm not sure Tesla will be an agent of change to drive future breakthroughs.
TG -
Sorry, my definition of "practical" includes "affordable" and "available". The occasional RAV4-EV on eBay at inflated cost (i.e., not affordable by mere working families) still doesn't count. "Available" also presume more than just a few hundred exist. I've never even *seen* a RAV4-EV or an EV-1 (during their short life) in person, let along had a chance to ride in or drive one. Sorry, they're aren't really available.
Also, I live in a part of the country that gets snow. Even much-vaunted (and as-yet unaffordable) Li-ion batteries don't like the cold.
I would like to buy an EV today that would handle my nice, short commute. After spending lots of time on this blog, eBay and many other places - I've come to the conclusion there's nothing out there I can afford that's ready to go.
My only current hope is to find someone's conversion project and complete it or rejuvenate it. But I've also discovered that such things are nearly non-existent here in the mid-Atlantic region (one recent exception was a rust bucket in need of a deep-pocket restoration).
Still hoping; still waiting...
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TG 1:53PM (6/18/2007)
Yes Phil,
You and me both. Waiting for something affordable and within a fifty mile reach.
Converting my *87 jeep [not rusty] but too expensive and out of the question. Looks as good as any jeep on the road. See EV stuff too:
http://TonyGuitar.blogspot.com
Lots of China made *Scooterteq* Electric motorbikes here on Vancouver Island but few if any EVs.
Zap sent thousands of their small three wheeled EV pick up trucks to France for mail delivery use. They price out at 10K each and could be a commuter vehicle.
Not my idea of a set of real wheels though.
Did you see the *Vote for Volt* blogsite. Carries some acid commentary but GM takes it like a man.
It*s a bit tricky to find.
In the bottom left column there is a *switching between 1 & 2* choice box. Click on #2.
http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/
Thanks for the enjoyable debate. = TG
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Phil L. 2:42PM (6/18/2007)
TG -
Good blog!
Best wishes selling the Jeep. It looks pretty good for 238K, considering time spent in BC winters.
Yes, it isn't a very good EV conversion candidate. Personally, I'd love (well, given some time and money) a conversion project of something like a Ford Focus.
It's a good size (big enough to be useful; small enough to be light, with a decent Cd). Common enough to be found for reasonable money, and good part availability. New enough to have modern safety equipment (specifically, ABS and airbags - something missing from many EV conversion projects). But the realities of work and three small kids intrude upon such things. And Google reveals little in the way of Focus EV projects, so there are probably concerns I'm missing.
Meanwhile, it's shaping up to be an interesting EV week on eBay. A Ford Ranger conversion by US Electricar in VA looks like it has promise, and a lower 'Buy it now' than I would have expected (but no battery info). And a VW Fox conversion project in MO that needs some work, but appears to be fairly complete.
Hmmm - I need to line up some long-distance vehicle moving options if I'm ever going to pull this off...
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