CalCars: Toyota does not approve of plugging in your Prius
Pushed by talk in Congress about possibly giving incentives to taxpayers for converting standard hybrids to plug-in hybrids, Toyota today announced their reasons for not supporting PHEVs. In a memo written by Charles E. Ing, Director, Government Affairs Toyota Motor North America, and posted over at pro-PHEV advocates CalCars, Toyota says that, "PHEV converters should comply with existing standards governing second stage manufacturers, if applicable, and, NHTSA and EPA should be required to establish new regulations for certification of conversions of used vehicles. In other words, the product liability and warranty risk, should be assumed by the converter. The government should assure that there be no degradation in emissions and vehicle safety before it provides taxpayer incentives."
Toyota's main areas of concern for PHEV conversions are as follows:
- The cars will no longer be compliant with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.
- Most conversions use lithium batteries, which Toyota has decided are not good.
- There is an increased fire risk and injury in an accident, and the spare tire is usually removed.
- The extra batteries have an adverse effect on the rear suspension.
- The warranty is voided by the installation of PHEV systems.
[Source: CalCars]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Tim 5:43PM (6/29/2007)
Toyota is about to be leapfrogged in a BIG way and apparently they don’t even see it coming! Why?
Well, the future of personal transportation is all electric V2G cars and light trucks. It’s very difficult to get anywhere in the US (even a few miles) without using the highway system. Parallel systems like the Prius (with or without plug-in capability) must use petroleum to attain highway speeds because they are designed backwards with large IC engines and small “helper” electric motors.
Once e-Flex and other series PHEVs come online people will quickly become accustomed to and comfortable with all electric drive. As batteries improve and their costs decrease most “range extender” ICEs will be removed and replaced with more and/or better batteries. These V2G BEVs will be the primary family vehicle with ICEs used only for long trips and/or heavy hauling. Passenger vehicles with parallel systems will not easily transition to all electric and thus will rapidly become obsolete. Their owners should expect to take a big hit on resale value as if they are trying to resell a record player or 2 year old computer.
GM learned “you snooze, you lose” the hard way! Like GM, Toyota has become arrogant. Like GM, competition will correct this problem.
If you check out the reports from the e-Flex battery manufacturer’s, BOTH will have full working packs the meet or exceed GM’s specifications in GM’s hands BEFORE the end of this year. http://www.gm-volt.com/ It’s no longer a question of IF, but WHEN e-Flex will arrive!
Toyota had better step up.
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kballs 8:38PM (6/29/2007)
* The cars will no longer be compliant with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.
Why not? Is somebody going to cut up the load-bearing portions of the body to fit more batteries in?
* Most conversions use lithium batteries, which Toyota has decided are not good.
Not good? You mean because of fire risk? Higher cost? Because they can't produce a retail product with them so nobody else should?
* There is an increased fire risk and injury in an accident, and the spare tire is usually removed.
Redundant with the last 2 points. Spare schmare, get run flats (I'm surprised ALL hybrids don't have them to make more room for the batteries).
* The extra batteries have an adverse effect on the rear suspension.
So when I load up a Prius with 4 passengers and cargo what happens? Any experienced modder will swap the springs for heavier battery installs... I think a bigger issue here would be increased stress on the brakes from having to stop the extra mass, but since the regenerative braking takes so much load off the disc brakes anyway, I doubt it would be an issue.
* The warranty is voided by the installation of PHEV systems.
Why do they care? That just means that they are off the hook and should be happy on saving the cost of any warranty work on any PHEV conversions! Any commercial installers would either have their own warranty, or have a big sign in the shop "we void all vehicle warranties", my guess being the former since they'd have a hard time doing business with the sign.
I think Toyota didn't want to see fat tax breaks for conversions because it would mean less people buying NEW hybrids and more buying USED ones to do conversions with. You could buy a used Prius for $12k, then do an $8k conversion, then get $6500 or so back, for a total of under $14k for a 100MPG Prius. Toyota would at the same time be trying to sell you a 70-80MPG Prius with no plug-in capability for $22k.
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Joseph 4:47PM (6/30/2007)
"The government should assure that there be no degradation in emissions and vehicle safety"
So Toyota is telling me that a car that can run excusively on electric power for miles, should be checked for emissions? And what will the batteries do? Explode and spread nuclear waste? Not likely.
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MikeW 3:52PM (6/30/2007)
"It’s very difficult to get anywhere in the US (even a few miles) without using the highway system." Bull, there are plenty of back roads, and helpful nav systems (and plain old maps)
Highways are faster, but the tax (speeding tickets. Can we just have a 100mph daytime, 80mph nighttime limit) is getting old. and lots of highways are being fenced in (can pull a u-ey in the median), so if there is another natural disaster, you'd be stuck-just sitting. Good for the diesel and hybrid folks, and motorcycles.
The prius is both series and parallel. That distinction is passe.
Helper motors (Mojo the helper monkey) have low power(say 10hp or less), like the insight, accord, civic.
The prius has a very strong motor (not the generator) The accord can not even move under electric power, the new civic hybrid is improved over the old one.
Run flats suck, PAX is better but still adds unsprung weight.
This is just FUD from toyota. They are mad that their new prius won't look so revolutionary.
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Don 3:55PM (7/02/2007)
Blow it out your ass, Toyota...you're just worried about other companies bettering the technology.
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T 10:16PM (7/23/2007)
Joseph,
Emissions come from sources beyond the tailpipe, such as hydrogen gas emissions from batteries.
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robert 9:02AM (7/26/2007)
Uh their too expensive period. Ignore all other things above. Converters require you to basically double the cost of the cars. When you can buy a EV car that can get 120+ miles and charge in less than 10 minutes (A123 batteries and NanoSafe batteries "can" do this) for around what it cost to buy a normal prius 25,000 you will have a revolution on your hands otherwise don't hold your breath. Luckly many many people including Toyota (secretly) working very hard on acheving this. I say give it 5 more years.
The future is EV not hydrogen which takes energy to make (meaning EV is inheriently better), hard to store, needs new infrastructure.
Why Toyota doesn't support them god really knows. They hate being showed up and its a lawsuit thats waiting to happen so they want to keep their hands as far off this as possible.
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GoodCheer 9:46AM (7/30/2007)
"The prius is both series and parallel. That distinction is passe."
That's a bit like saying "My coupe can be a 2-seater, or a 1-seater (if I'm alone in the car)".
A series hybrid is one where the _only_ role of the ICE is to produce electricity. If the mechanical energy of the ICE can also directly power the drive-shafts, then it's a parallel hybrid. The Prius is a parallel hybrid.
The proposed Volt has no provision (as far as I know) to power the wheels with the ICE, thus it is a series hybrid.
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