VIDEO: Bob Lutz expounds on diesel in America
In the latest installment of the continuing video series being published on GM's FastLane Blog, this week Bob Lutz responds to the question: "What about diesel?" Clearly Lutz isn't a huge fan of diesel going forward, at least for the North American market. In a response similar to that given by Ford's Derrick Kuzak recently, he thinks the diesel efficiency advantage will largely be erased in the next years thanks to advances like gasoline direct injection, turbocharging and the coming of HCCI and it will happen at a much lower cost. Check out his entire response in the video after the jump.
[Source: General Motors]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Mark 11:04PM (2/09/2008)
I am looking forward to the upcoming diesel choices from VW and Honda. These vehicles have already proven themselves in Europe. With a diesel, you have many choices for running the engine. Pure diesel, biodiesel or pure vegatable oil. Granted, you need a heater if you live where the temp gets below 40, but there are a number of conversion companies that offer some nicely engineered sytems that include a heater to keep the fuel in its liquid state. Diesels last longer, are more fuel efficient and powerful when compared to a similar displacement gas engine. If the US is serious about reducung oil imports, the diesel is the best quick answer. Hydrogen and electric still require the use of energy to produce the "fuel" for these choices of propulsion. In my area, diesel is about a 5% to 10% premium over regular gas. Given the 25-35 increase in fuel efficiency, it still makes sense to go diesel, especially if you want to help reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
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Ron 12:57PM (5/18/2009)
I was worried that Mr. Lutz would not have any excuses for failing to develop diesel automobiles in the U.S. Thank goodness I was wrong!
Taking advise from Bob Lutz on the direction auto technology needs to go in this country is like taking home safety suggestions from Charles Manson. Maybe in a few months Mr. Lutz can give us his views on bankruptcy of an American industrial giant.
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brandon 4:16PM (7/12/2007)
Thats all fine and dandy, but the point isn't all about efficiency. It's also about torque, renewable fuel via biodiesel, and as many alternatives as possible to petrol
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Rik 4:31PM (7/12/2007)
Oh dear, typical vested interest incremental innovation talk... :-D
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absolutkfx 5:20PM (7/12/2007)
I have to agree with Bob Lutz in which diesel cars are overhyped. From what I heard so far the volkswagen lupo diesel is the most fuel efficient car over in europe (if you know of any production car that can beat the lupo and is diesel definatly mention it) which gets 70mpg and its like a honda insight and I bet the insight is a whole lot faster while sacrificing 10mpg fuel economy. Id rather drive something like the fuel vapor car and get 92mpg and at least its fun and gets great 0-60 which is all that matters in daily driving. Besides direct injection and hcci there is 2 mode hybrids and miller cycle turbo engines. You mix miller cycle and 2 mode hybrids and I think we got something even better than diesels and for those saying you can use waste cooking oil you know if some tax dude catches you they are going to make you pay anyway but then again you have a better chance of getting hit by lightning if you don't advertise you are using it.
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Tim 5:13PM (7/12/2007)
Does anyone know the emission differences between low sulfur petrol-diesel and B100? The fact is that liquid fuels (especially diesel and biodiesel) don’t store well in tanks or fuel systems.
Anyway, Mr. Lutz said recently that the future is electric. They learned from the EV-1 that the general public will first have to become comfortable with BEVs by losing their fear of getting stranded. This paradigm shift must be completed in stages. Stage one was mild BAS stop-start hybrids. Stage two is parallel hybrids. Stage three is Plug-In hybrids with a “range extender” security blanket. Stage four is full Battery Electrics. That’s why GM chose e-Flex electric car with a range extender. It’s the most logical choice. This is doubly so once 10 minute “fast charge” in widely available.
In 15-20 years or so, liquid biofuels and Hydrogen (as inefficient as it is) will only be used for the emergency back-up range extender, heavy hauling and long-range travel GM is putting so much capital into H2 because it won’t go “stale” when left in the “range extender” tank for long periods of time. Mr. Lutz also said that GM is worried that the fuel would go bad because many would never use the range extender.
GM may actually be very right this time
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Jimmy 5:53PM (7/12/2007)
It seems odd that Lutz doesn't know that Honda and VW can meet emissions standards without urea injection. Diesel has not been overhyped, it really does make a huge improvement in efficiency. Hybrids have been overhyped by both manufactures and unrealistic EPA estimates. Electric drive has been exaggerated to the point it is more a religion than a technology.
Tim, you said "liquid fuels ... don’t store well in tanks". Have you told this to ocean vessels spending months at sea with diesel fuel for power ? How about remote locations that depend on a seasonal diesel fuel shipment for all their power ?
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Tim 6:08PM (7/12/2007)
Jimmy- Bulk storage is not the same as refined fuel sitting around in your car's tank or a fuel injector. If you dont' drive your car for a few months, the fuel will go stale. The varnish will screw up sensors, clog pumps and injectors. Ask any mechanic better yet, leave the fuel sitting in you gas trimmer this winter and see how well it starts and then runs next spring.
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Jack S. 9:28PM (7/12/2007)
HCCI wouldn't be possible but for the existence of diesel technology. Moreover diesel engines ARE by definition more efficient than gasoline engines. Read up on thermodynamic cycles and try and understand. My mercedes 350SDL from 1991 got 25mpg and weighed nearly 5000 lbs. I'm sick of hearing wah wah wah from the manufacturers cartel that they can't meet updated CAFE standards with current technology. Get over it.
In that vein, I'd probably dismiss diesel technology too if my current stable had some of the worst in class diesel engines.
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Joseph 5:00PM (7/13/2007)
He's saying diesel isn't the answer to all our problems because it costs about 4k more than a gas car. He also says that as automakers slowly wring out the last bits of efficiency from the gasoline enigne with all sorts of technology, that the efficiency difference b/w diesel and gas won't be worth the cost.
Well, with all the technology that would be added to the gasoline engine to make it more efficient, wouldn't the added cost get rid of the whole reason why you said diesels aren't the answer!!!
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Chris M 1:20AM (7/13/2007)
Mr. Lutz was quite right to point out the emissions problems for diesels, and when the additional costs for diesels and the extra emissions controls are added in, diesels end up costing as much or more, compared to hybrids of equivalent performance and milage. However, the real champs for efficiency and clean air are the plug-ins.
There is still some use for diesels, especially when fueled by biodiesel, but the future is electric.
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Pat 3:02AM (7/13/2007)
While it may cost more to make a diesel powered car, diesel engines typically last longer than gas powered engines. So Lutz is against an cars that will end up costing me less and costing him more?
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ThwartedEfforts 7:37AM (7/13/2007)
Again, he's talking down diesels based on how they fit within a set of arbitrary rules laid out by the world's leading polluter -- and all without a hint of irony.
One of the principal reasons that US legislation has been mean to diesel engines is because diesel cars comprise a tiny minority of traffic there. Had Americans been given access to the right fuel and the rights cars all those decades ago, things would be very different. For starters, 45mpg+ plus means that most people would be taking the rising fuel prices in their stride...
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motorman 8:35AM (7/13/2007)
commercial and industrial diesel engines last a long time but check with you friends that have powerstroke fords and ask them about how long they last and the cost to repair. if they are honest they will tell you they ain't cheap. most companies with medium duty trucks have found out it is much less expensive to run gas engines than diesel. the gas engine are much cheaper to replace and they last just as long or longer
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Ian 9:49AM (7/13/2007)
I think the problem is that going fwd the diesel engines are having to get more and more complicated (read expensive to develop and manufacture) to meet the present and future emmission standards. This means a likely significant increase in maintenance and repair over existing diesel engines already in cars.
Lutz is correct to point all of this out. GM does use diesels and does develop them. It's in GM's own interests to choose the best mix of engines going fwd. Showing concern over diesels is NOT the same as saying GM won't continue development or won't use them in future cars. GM is saying what many others say. That the basic gas/petrol engine has considerable development opportunites.
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david 9:26AM (7/13/2007)
Motorman I would love to see any data to back up that statement. Look at the warranties offered by Diesel engine manufactures. Ford powerstrokes had injector problems but that was a completely unique issue. In general diesel engines will last much longer that gasoline engines.
I wonder if Bob Lutz is paying attention to VW's new diesel technologies.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/07/12/next-generation-volkswagen-engines-are-running/
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motorman 9:45AM (7/13/2007)
i am going by people i know who own fleets of trucks. remember truck down time to a company costs them money because if the truck is out of service for any reason it is not making money.
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sclaudio 11:25AM (7/13/2007)
I really enjoy reading all these comments on diesel engines from people that have never driven one.
I have a diesel Skoda with a 1.9D engine from VW and I get 5.2L or less per 100Km which is around 45MPG. And that includes driving week long around the city.
And yes these engines last forever, much much longer that any gas engine. The reason why some of you say that diesel engines give all sorts of problems, are those made by the big 3. For example the good diesel engines that GM has are made by Isuzu the ones from Chrysler are from Mercedes or VW and Ford are made by PSA.
So how can Lutz be in favor of diesel engines if all they can make are gas engines.
For example all the Japanese makers have great diesel engines specially Toyota.
And if any of you want to try a great diesel engine take a look at BMW's 330d with
6 in line with 231 cv and 51.02 kgm - 500 Nm and then you can say all you want.
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Bill 10:21AM (7/14/2007)
I haven't seen any automakers claiming HCCI is less than 2 years away.
Fuel-efficient diesels, at least from foreign automakers, will be here in that timeframe.
Including Honda's popular diesel Accord sold in the U.K. - looks like it's only about $500 more than the gasoline version.
It'll need a catalytic system here in the U.S. to reduce NOx, but I don't believe that will cost anywhere near $3500.
I think GM is saying "we can't be bothered to develop a clean, efficient, reliable, common-rail diesel engine, so please go away"
That's fine - I'll be more than happy to wave as I cruise by in my 50 mpg (highway) Accord.
For those of you who want a moderately priced diesel a little sooner than 2009, VW will be back with clean diesels this May.
And diesel fuel stores much longer than does gasoline - several years with commonly available fuel treatments - get a "heating oil" tank, fill it with on-road diesel, and safely have a several hundred gallon supply of fuel at your own home.
Given the current cost of the battery pack alone, it's going to be a long time before pure EVs are anything more than toys for the rich.
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Rob 4:01PM (10/03/2007)
Lutz is an old school Detroit Man. Just the reason that the Big 3 have been suffering so long. The diesel will make big in-roads into the US market the next 10 years. Forward thinking companies like Honda, VW, DCX, and others will leave GM and Ford in the rear view mirror. You had better wake-up and smell the diesel boys.
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