Toyota technical strategy presentation
Toyota Executive Vice President Kazuo Okamoto did a technical presentation on Challenges to Sustainable Mobility in Tokyo a few days ago. It appears that Toyota is trying to spread some FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) on the concept of series hybrids. Evidently Toyota believes the approach they are taking with their experimental plug-in hybrid Prius is superior to that being promoted by General Motors and Ford with the E-Flex and HySeries drive vehicles.
The presentation took place at an investor meeting where Okamoto said that factoring in battery size, charge time and range, a parallel hybrid with higher capacity battery makes the most sense. Depending on how battery development progresses on cost and reliability over the next couple of years, this may well turn out to be true. However, another scenario is that battery cost will come down enough, especially if re-use is factored in, that the simplified drive-train of a series hybrid will turn out to be the more efficient and effective approach to the problem. Toyota may just be trying to downplay the prospects of series hybrids because of their own lithium battery difficulties.
[Source: Toyota, GreenCarCongress]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Kardax 4:35PM (9/05/2007)
If either of these technologies make it to market, it's a Good Thing™. Somebody just has to take the next steps.
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Domenick 7:59PM (9/05/2007)
Seems to me like the Toyota way is a bit more complicated and more likely to break down. I think I prefer the GM (I can't believe I'm saying something good about GM) approach.
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Tim Russell 8:21PM (9/05/2007)
When did Ford get into the "E-flex" type drive train. Last I checked their hybrid system was like 'yota's.
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Sam Abuelsamid 8:28PM (9/05/2007)
Ford's HySeries drive is a series hybrid just like the E-Flex. Ford even had a running prototype Edge with HySeries drive on the road two months before the Volt first appeared. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/02/05/autobloggreen-drives-the-hyseries-ford-edge-and-fuel-cell-explor/
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Tim Russell 8:57PM (9/05/2007)
How'd I miss that, must have been when I was tied up with work or something.
Looks like Toyota is trying to pump up the FUD factor on the series hybrids. I can understand why with the investment they have in the HSD system. If EV based series hybrids end up with close to the desired all electric range GM and Ford turn around and eat some of Toyota's lunch. Go for it guys, competition can be a healthy thing. Can you imagine if automakers end up in a all electric range war instead of a horse power war. I do think it'll be 2011 or 2012 before we see production "Volt" vehicles.
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Joseph 4:56PM (9/06/2007)
Aw...Toyota. They can make a car less green than GM but people will still think that the Toyota was more green.
Toyota's approach would probably be much easier to do at a better price than GM's approach on PHEVs. However, by the time these cars are produced, technology will have improved, and Toyota will be behind the game if they follow this path, IMO.
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Beek 11:57PM (9/05/2007)
Toyota is just rationalizing something they know will never fly in the long term. Too much invested already in HSD and no serious competition yet, so why go to the SPHEV and cannibalize revenue and open the door to the Chinese? The LiFePO4 battery was invented in the late 1990s. They had a lot of time to create a cheap battery pack. But they consciously refused to do so for profit reasons.
The more the buyers get to know of the potential of the SPHEV, the less will Toyota's snake oil HSD be appealing.
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psece 10:13AM (9/06/2007)
It would seem that Panasonic(Toyota's battery supplier) is a lot farther behind everyone in producing safe litium ion batteries than I thought. FUD is a bad sign when it is about a car that is 2 to 3 years away....
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Benson Leung 11:10AM (9/06/2007)
Domenick... Toyota's design may seem more complicated, but the fact is, Toyota's design is the same as the one that has been deployed on Prius hybrids for the last 10 years, and those have not been prone to breakdown.
psece : I wouldn't call a car that is currently selling today (the Prius) and has been selling for the past 10 years BEHIND schedule. The plug-in version is a straightforward conversion.
You can't dispute the fact that the score to date is :
Toyota HSD hybrids sold = 1 million
everyone else Series hybrids sold = 0
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GoodCheer 2:10PM (9/06/2007)
I've mentioned this before, but I'll say again:
If you've going to be generating power for the propulsion of the car with an IC engine it makes no sense at all not to be able to drive the wheels directly from the crank. Being forced to convert that mechanical power into electricity, then into chemical energy (in the battery), then back to electricity and back to mechanical is simply crazy.
I think Toyota's torque splitter is a great way to run a generator and/or the wheels. If Toyota would simply bias the power generation more to electric (put in a ~60hp IC engine and a ~70hp electric motor in stead of 90/40), increase the battery capacity and add charging, they would have the best of all worlds.
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psece 4:21PM (9/06/2007)
Benson Leung -
I was talking about Toyota commenting on the Volt, which is 2 to 3 years away. Commenting about a product that isn't available is bad marketing 101. It leads people to ask "What is this Chevy Volt everyone is talking about?".
GoodCheer -
If you are able to do a daily commute that is under the batteries capacity and you plug it in at night to charge, how is Toyota's system better?
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Joseph 6:44PM (9/06/2007)
If you look carefully, the battery for the Toyota PHEV system is exactly 1/4 of the GM's PHEV system. Toyota says their PHEVs go ten miles, and GM says theirs go 40.
Toyota said they are using NiMH batteries, and GM says they are using the high-energy storing lithium based batteries. If the other PHEV is supposed to represent GM's PHEV (which other would it be?) then that would mean that Toyota is representing the use of a lithium-based battery!
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GoodCheer 10:29AM (9/11/2007)
"GoodCheer -
If you are able to do a daily commute that is under the batteries capacity and you plug it in at night to charge, how is Toyota's system better?"
If you're operating as an EV, the system with less weight invested in other components wins. I'm a huge fan on EVs, and know that for 90% of all driving done in this country they would do the job.
But if you insist on having a 400 mile range and carrying on-board liquid fueled power generation, that means you insist on a vehicle that travels 100s of miles on the highway (cause you can't go 400 miles a day on city streets or at city speeds). And if you're travelling on the highway, a direct connection between a small ICE and the drive train makes sense.
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