NYT: normal, affordable electric cars don't exist
Sunday's New York Times has an article about the complete lack of a normal electric car the average person can afford. There are smaller vehicles you can buy and you can search Ebay for a good conversion or a RAV4 but the New York Times is essentially correct. If you are a middle class guy with 2.5 kids and you want a four-door sedan, electric car for about $30,000 you are SOL. Here are some quotes from the article;
"Strip away the promises and the offerings are virtually nonexistent. Not a single purely electric vehicle with four seats and the ability to reach highway speeds is being mass-produced anywhere in the world. ... There is still not a single E.V. or plug-in hybrid available that can approach the driving range, interior room and performance of a typical gas-powered family sedan, at anywhere near the price that an average consumer would pay."
Below the fold is a video of the Exar-1, a failed normal looking electric car. Lots of electric cars have failed not just in the '70s,'80s and '90s as the New York Times mentions, but from the '20s to '60s as well. Will history repeat itself with the new promising batch of fully electric car and/or battery companies like Miles, Tesla, Phoenix, A123, Altair and EEstor? Maybe the fully electric car will never play a large role?
Editor's Update: I think we should point out these ten electric cars, which are perhaps not normal or affordable, but they are (mostly) available.
[Source: New York Times and tipster Phil]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
David Murray 11:28AM (2/05/2008)
I built my own electric car for about $6,000. It isn't as good as these production cars, but proves that they can be built inexpensively.
http://galaxy22.dyndns.org/ev-talon/
Reply
jack marchand 10:47PM (2/29/2008)
Feb.5th,2008
Gentlemen
We need not worry about anyone trying to control the battery swap stations,
something I can design (see my web sites below) if need be.
Not only lithium-ion batteries could be used in these stations but
any type see this web site of the EPA.
http://epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fuels/altfuels/420f00034.htm
It states -The following types of batteries have the potential to power electric vehicles:
• Lead-Acid— Provides a low-cost, low-range (less than 100 miles) option wi
th a 3-year life cycle.
• Nickel-Metal Hydride — Offers a greater driving range and life cycle, but is cur
rently more expensive than lead-acid batteries.
• Nickel-Cadmium — Offers a range of 100 miles, a long life, and faster rechar
ges than lead-acid batteries, but is more expensive and has lower peak pow
er and recharging efficiency.
• Lithium-Ion — Offers the potential for a long driving range and life cy
cle, but is currently very costly.
•Zinc-Air — Currently under development. Provides superior performance compa
red to current battery technology.
Flywheels Currently under development. Could be capable of storing a larger
amount of energy in smaller, lighter weight systems than chemical batteries.
SO PUSH COMES TO SHOVE ANY CHOICE WILL WORK
No need waiting the choices may limit our distances between swaps but not for long a
temporary more frequent stops but only for a minute. Since a global standard size
and voltage will be agreed upon
forcing the auto manufacturers to comply to a quick swap interfacing at all stations
all new entrepreneurs will want to participate thus forcing competition like never
before. I.E. No more monopolies in refueling any and all vehicles including trucks and buses.
Visit my web sites for a new beginning -check this
http://globalsys.topcities.com/electriCar.html
http://globalsys.topcities.com/dualmodemaglev.html
http://globalsys.topcities.com/00glblslrnrgsys.html
http://globalsys.topcities.com
For more data on other items go down towards the bottom of the last
web site above and click on to the various indexes.
I hope you enjoy it. A new attitude is coming for a better and happier world
Sicerely Jack Marchand
Reply
jack marchand 10:39PM (2/29/2008)
Feb.21,2008
Gentlemen
We need not worry about anyone trying to control the battery swap stations,
something I can design (see my web sites below) if need be.
Not only lithium-ion batteries could be used in these stations but
any type see this web site of the EPA.
http://epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fuels/altfuels/420f00034.htm
It states -The following types of batteries have the potential to power electric vehicles:
• Lead-Acid— Provides a low-cost, low-range (less than 100 miles) option wi
th a 3-year life cycle.
• Nickel-Metal Hydride — Offers a greater driving range and life cycle, but is cur
rently more expensive than lead-acid batteries.
• Nickel-Cadmium — Offers a range of 100 miles, a long life, and faster rechar
ges than lead-acid batteries, but is more expensive and has lower peak pow
er and recharging efficiency.
• Lithium-Ion — Offers the potential for a long driving range and life cy
cle, but is currently very costly.
•Zinc-Air — Currently under development. Provides superior performance compa
red to current battery technology.
Flywheels Currently under development. Could be capable of storing a larger
amount of energy in smaller, lighter weight systems than chemical batteries.
SO PUSH COMES TO SHOVE ANY CHOICE WILL WORK
No need waiting the choices above may limit our distances between swaps but not for long a
temporary more frequent stops but only for a minute. Since a global standard size
and voltage will be agreed upon
forcing the auto manufacturers to comply to a quick swap interfacing at all stations
all new entrepreneurs will want to participate thus forcing competition like never
before. I.E. No more monopolies in refueling any and all vehicles including trucks and buses.
Visit my web sites for a new beginning -check this
http://globalsys.topcities.com/electriCar.html
http://globalsys.topcities.com/dualmodemaglev.html
http://globalsys.topcities.com/00glblslrnrgsys.html
http://globalsys.topcities.com
For more data on other items go down towards the bottom of the last
web site above and click on to the various indexes.
I hope you enjoy it. A new attitude is coming for a better and happier world
Sicerely Jack Marchand
Reply
Just Watching 9:16PM (3/31/2008)
Let's assume we get 80% government grant when we buy a E.V. That would make them affordable for a lot of people. The brown out that the east and west coast experience each summer will be nothing compaired to the problems they will have when the grid tries to recharge millions of E.V. battries.
The electric motor car is here but we have failed to power the grid to make all this happen.
Reply
gormanwvzb 1:39PM (8/06/2008)
I read a great story about electric cars in London titled, "Electric Car Finds Its Niche," found here:
http://economicefficiency.blogspot.com/2008/08/electric-car-finds-its-niche.html
It lays out how if you live in London, an electric car may be the way to go.
Reply
Ed 2:30PM (10/16/2008)
This is very true. There is no affordable family electric car that is available for the average Joe to buy.
However, there are shops that will convert gasoline cars to electric cars for you. This is often much cheaper than something you would buy from Detroit.
I built an electric car from a '94 Toyota Tercel. It has cost me about $5000 total. I used relatively inexpensive parts as this is my first EV and my "discovery" project (I wanted to work out all the bugs without a huge amount of money at risk). The car will do about 25 miles per charge and has a top speed of around 50mph. If I had spent a bit more (maybe about $10,000 total) I could have a car that would have a top speed of 75mph and a range of 50 miles. As battery technology advances and becomes less expensive, it is a relatively easy project to install new batteries to get a better range.
You can see my project at http://www.ZeroGasoline.com
Reply
why not the LS2/LS7? 1:32PM (9/22/2007)
Yep.
And has a huge electric car fan, this is the biggest issue facing electric cars. Martin Eberhard will tell you otherwise, but right now there is no way to make a mass-market electric car.
This is what should have been the central piece of "Who Killed the Electric Car?" and still weasels its way in there in a few places despite the director's efforts to demonize GM and CARB.
Current electric cars, despite all efforts, are really only viable for those who are willing to accept their limitations of:
high initial cost
high cost to get a 240V/30A plug installed in your garage (of course, first you have to be in a house/condo so you can even modify your place at all, renters need not apply)
reduced range
can make do with two seats and often almost no storage area
Also note the two seat thing hurts families most, and most occupants of houses/condos are families, a nasty double whammy.
Now, I know there are a lot of people on here who are willing to make sacrifices to get into an electric car. But you have to look at the customer base for cars in general. They're used to buying more car than they will ever use. They buy SUVs even though they will never tow anything or go offroad.
Now you're trying to not only sell them less car than they might use (esp. with the 2 seat limitations, a killer for families) but you're going to charge a premium up front for it.
All this combines to narrow your market hugely. It's just not the electric car's time for the mass market yet. But it is important we have these groups like Tesla investigating it, because it'll take time to develop the electric powertrain technologies and such we'll be using when the storage systems (be them batteries or some liquid fuel) finally catch up to what is needed to hit the sweet spot of the market.
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Mikael Johansson 1:43PM (9/22/2007)
This time the electric car is here to stay. People nowadays are aware of the oil situation. People are aware of the necessity to reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere. And because of the good energy effiency of the EV:s, they will for sure be the next type of mass produced vehicle in the world.
Reply
Joseph 10:46PM (9/22/2007)
The reason we don't have any electric cars for the masses is because of supply and demand. It's the chikcen and the egg story all over again!
There hasn't been enough demand for EVs to actually mass-produce them on a reasonable scale, until about maybe 5 years ago. In the past five years NiMH (now illegal to use in an EV because of patent issues) and lithium-based batteries have shown that they offer enough range, life, and power to make the EV market signifigantly larger than ever before. Along with the green-craze going around in cars, and ever advancing electronics, EVs are looking better than ever.
The only reason we don't have a 30k 150 mile range, 4 door EV is that auto-companies, along with obviously not liking EVs, don't want to make a niche vehicle because it is risky. What if people don't want EVs?
I think that PHEVs, like the Chevy Volt, are a giant bridge toward pure EVs. As the LS2/LS7 person said aobve, people are used to buying so much more car than they need. People think, for whatever reason, that they need a vehicle that tows thousands of pounds and can go a thousand miles in one day. When people, hopefully, own the Volt, they'll see how rarely they have to go beyond 40 miles. Then, they'll think, "Heck, with 150 miles of range I'll be perfectly fine. I'm gonna get a Tesla." That's how it'll all work in my dream...
This article fails to point out what I am saying. This is why I can't stand, most, journalists.
Reply
Tony Belding 3:04PM (9/22/2007)
To the NY Times, I would answer with a big "Duh!" Saying that electric cars today can't compete against gasoline cars in the mass market isn't news. When one comes along that can, that will be news.
The implied argument from NYT sounds like, "It hasn't happened yet, therefore it's never going to." It's a non-sequitur. Following that pseudo-logic would mean that nothing ever changes and no progress is ever made.
Beyond that, however. . . There are a lot of different questions and aspects to this issue.
The Tesla Roadster looks like it will compete successfully in its niche, as an exotic sportscar. That's news. If electrics can get a toehold in one niche, then why not another, and another, and eventually go mainstream? That's Tesla's whole plan -- but it's only a plan, and NYT is perfectly entitled to point out that it hasn't happened yet. It's going to be tough.
What about PHEVs? If they work as planned, then you've got something that can work on grid electricity most of the time, but without the compromises that BEVs have always required. Toyota and GM are both racing to develop these, and I don't think it's because they're dumb.
$8/gal gas hasn't happened yet. Shortages and rationing haven't happened yet either. It's not far-fetched to imagine that they will happen as global demand for petroleum outstrips the supply in coming years. Then BEVs and PHEVs will start to look a lot more attractive to a lot of people.
The question has been asked, "What kind of sacrifices will people be willing to make to drive an electric car?" That's really the wrong question. . . The question should be, "What kind of sacrifices will people be willing to make to keep driving a gas car?" Will they be willing to wait in long lines at the gas pump, when they are lucky enough to find one with gas available? Will they be willing to wait until they are issued a ration ticket? Will they be willing to shell out $8, or $10, or $12 per gallon? Or will they take the cheap-and-convenient route of getting an electric car that they can charge at home and drive whenever they want?
Reply
rgseidl 3:46PM (9/22/2007)
The biggest problem is actually not the technology, as anything produced in high volume eventually becomes cheap enough for the Average Joe. No, the issue is that US consumers always want the full-fat version from Day One yet have unrealistic price expectations for that.
Some BEV enthusiasts claim that they are completely independent of foreign oil. Well, the groceries and other goods they buy are still delivered by diesel trucks. If they live on the East Coast, chances are heating oil keeps them warm in winter.
If you want to contribute toward getting electric drive technology into high-volume series production, the key thing to look for is Li-Ion batteries and/or supercaps, even if these are only used in a supporting role (e.g. Valeo Stars-X).
We may also see POPHEVs (peripheral-only PHEVs) in which all of the vehicle peripherals except oil pump and probably, valve actuation are powered using grid electricity. This includes engine start, A/C compressor, power steering, lights and passenger compartment goodies, optional cabin and diesel fuel heaters (for cold climates), an optional AC outlet inside the cabin plus the locked external AC outlet (if you're camping or something).
In addition, an electric supercharger and/or torque boost motor can be fitted and activated as needed. All this lets the engine concentrate on propulsion alone, at least until the grid charge is depleted. POPHEVs would be a natural evolution of BMW's EfficientDynamics approach. It would let manufacturers transition to a higher voltage grid (e.g. 42V) and kick-start the market for automotive Li-ion batteries using small packs.
You wouldn't be driving a single mile on grid electricity alone, but unless you're a CARB bureaucrat, so what? For an manageable premium up front, you could get a car with a sharply downsized ICE - preferably turbocharged - and save perhaps 20% in fuel cost.
This way, the car you buy after you sell your used POPHEV may be a full PHEV or true BEV that you can actually afford.
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Domenick 4:35PM (9/22/2007)
I had never heard of that Exar-1 before. Interesting reading! http://www.amectran.com/amectran.htm
For the record, I am not a CARB bureaucrat and I don't want to have to buy gasoline just to go a mile. Or 40.
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Tony Belding 5:39PM (9/22/2007)
BTW, does anybody know what happened to www.teslamotorsclub.com?
It's been offline for a couple days now.
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stevejust 6:27PM (9/22/2007)
Why does everyone forget the solelectria? Guys from MIT were making them back in 1997 or so... I saw one at the University of Florida about that time.
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Joseph 10:48PM (9/22/2007)
Tony, I believe it is called electric performance or something now.
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david 11:46AM (9/23/2007)
Tony,
No clue about teslamotorsclub.com, but hope it will be up again. Hope it isn't another hacker....!
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stevejust 7:31PM (9/22/2007)
info on 4-door solectria:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/fsev/eva_results/solectria_car95.pdf
And you also didn't mention in this post that Fisker is planning a car to compete with the Tesla:
http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/
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susan.kraemer 11:09PM (9/22/2007)
The NYT is wrong.
The Smart EV is selling in Switzerland at infovel. And the Doblo EV SUV is selling in Italy. These are both mid market priced and freeway speed EVs:
Smart:
http://www.infovel.ch/eng/veicoli_lista.asp?prop=ok&propulsione=1&cat_ID=1
Doblo:
http://www.micro-vett.it/english/dobloing.html
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haqitman 12:07AM (9/23/2007)
I think the most promising BEV on the radar - if they actually deliver as advertised - is the Miles. Their $30K, 150 mile range, four door sedan seems to have the right mix of range, price, practicality and ability to pass the LA freeway test. When I can put my name to the title and plug it in in my garage, this argument will be history.
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michael e. v. knight 12:29AM (9/23/2007)
What about these two vehicles:
http://www.lionev.com/Vehicles.html
Reply