VIDEO: Fifth Gear pits the Audi TT DSG against the manual transmission
Volkswagen and Audi are pioneers in the commercialization of dual clutch transmissions under the DSG brand. The TT is offered with either a DSG or manual transmission. The beauty of a DSG is that it has the mechanical efficiency of a manual with lightning fast shifts that help performance and reduce the losses during shifts to provide even better mileage than a manual. It can also provide seamless automatic operation for those who prefer two pedal operation with 10-15 percent better mileage. Vicki Butler-Henderson of Fifth Gear in the UK got a chance to take lap a racetrack in two near-identical TTs where the only difference was the gearboxes. The DSG-equipped car managed to go four-tenths of a second faster and gets better mileage from the same engine. Check out the video after the jump.
[Source: Fifth Gear]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
IanL 7:08AM (5/15/2008)
Personally I would prefer to have the option of all possible modes. That why MikeW & George K are on the ball.
DSGs can be programmed to allow non-contiguous gear changes such as 4 to 2. It's all down to the customer asking/persuading the manufacturers to do it. The only difference is you will loose power transfer to the wheels during the process.
In addition,as far as I know Dual Clutch/Shaft systems are still not allowed in F1... at least last year they weren't.
By the way... the term 'shiftless' originates from the techniques of double-clutching since it attempts to remove the obvious 'jerks' if you changes manual 'discrete' gears quickly by aligning the shaft speeds more closely.
I's all really down to a drivers perception. Some people like the grunt approach while others prefer a more refined change.
One important thing to consider is that using a 'seamless' system does allow the driver to concentrate on the driving rather than being slightly distracted by the gear change. It can mean the difference between going off the rally route.
There is confusion though over terminology as most 'manual' officianardos who like to 'feel' the crunch of the gears through the stick will no doubt be aware that most systems are moving over to "Drive-by-Wire" so any 'feedback' you perceive is actually mechatronics rather than a physical connection.
There is another transmission that does everything you want and does not lose power during transfer. It can be used/integrated into existing Dual-Clutch housings if need be and not only allows non-contiguous gear changes but can do hybrid capability. It's basically a gearbox for "All Seasons". The system effectively allows the engine to work at its absolute maximum efficiency throughout all gear selections AND changes.
Go to www.eurekamagazine.co.uk and search for
"gear system is radical" or follow the link below:-
http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/article/3414/Gear-system-is-radical-but-workable-.aspx
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Scottavinabeer 5:18PM (10/14/2008)
I loved my DSG box in my Audi TT S - Line until one day, at only 29,000 miles, it went THUNK. It was quickly diagnosed by Audi as dangerous to drive and an uneconomical repair. At 4 years old it was out of warranty (even at 29,000 miles) and I have a bill to pay of £4,000 for a new box. I have full service history by Audi but no matter I still have to pay for the new box.
So buyer beware, the Audi DSG gearbox can have a life expectancy of less than 30,000 miles and Audi will not help you. They find this acceptable.
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Natalie 6:54PM (2/11/2009)
Hi I have a 2007 Audi TT Quattro. It has done 60,000km and is still in warranty (luckily). It goes to audi at least once a month because it is a lemon! The latest thing to go on it is the DSG transmission!! Although i have been complaining of a thunking sound for months. The mechanic at audi also told me that these DSG gearboxs arent all they are cracked up to be. No wonder BMW isnt putting them in their cars anymore. So if you are thinking about buying an Audi with this transmission, think twice before you go waste 100K like me.
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Mr. Guiyotinne 12:39PM (10/06/2007)
I will tell you my story. My mother in law wanted to change the car (a Toyota Corolla) and she didn´t have idea of cars. So I recomended an automatic diesel and she wanted hachtback. Toyota didn´t have this combination so we went to Volkswagen group. She´s a lawyer, so no Seat or Skoda. At the end we choose an A3 TDI 140 hp DSG. I´m a typical manual driver, but, oh man! I felt in love instantly!
After this, my father got a Golf TDI DSG and I hope to get another one in the future unless they get a diesel-hybrid version. DSG is a miracle!
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Ralph 1:03AM (10/08/2007)
DSG has some advantages over a manual and I can understand its appeal, but in a sporty/sports car I'll take a manual every time. I just hope that manufactures keep giving us both options so that we can all have the choice.
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ibn. 7:28AM (10/08/2007)
DSG gets 10-15 percent better mileage? That's the first time I've heard that. Actually that's the first time I've heard of an automatic getting better mileage than it's manual counterpart.
I'm calling shenanigans.
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JIM 7:49AM (10/08/2007)
Dual-clutch transmissions are spectacular. Sports cars are all about performance and these let you go faster and more efficiently. It definitely changes the way you drive the car, but without change there is no improvement and the perceived difference in connectivity is a myth. When I drive a car with a good dual-clutch transmission I feel more in command than in a traditional manual. All you have to do is flick the paddle and it changes gear instantly; that's what I call connectivity.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone that still chooses a traditional manual over a dual-clutch should have his or her car enthusiast credentials revoked.
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Fat Bastard 8:15AM (10/08/2007)
Here's the funny thing. At the 23 seconds left time, you can see her rounding the corner in the DSG Audi. What you will see is that the front drivers side is damaged. Did she crash? Of course they don't say a thing in the video but you can see the damage clearly.
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Johnny Rotten 9:31AM (10/08/2007)
Uh, Jim, you sir are an idiot. You think the DSG is the end all, be all of enthusiast driving. You obviously are a square and in no way an enthusiast. You are the person who bench races your dyno queen and drives auto because you can't drive manual. Sports cars are not all about going the fastest you can. First off, on a race track, a sequential manual is far more robust and can downshift multiple gears faster. A DSG is only fast for a single gear change, because otherwise you are changing gears on the same input shaft. Second, those are race cars. A 'sports car' is a street car you have fun driving. Driving an automatic is never fun. You obviously are not an enthusiast because you don't have fun driving, because you cant drive a stick. You sit in your commuter car with a DSG in normal auto-mode, sipping your non-fat latte on the way to work. And when you really want to get saucy, you put in manual mode, slap the shifter a few times, then get bored and forget, so your tranny ends up having to shift for you when you get caught in the wrong gear. DSGs may be faster shifting, but they are still autos and they take all of the joy out of driving. They are for wannabe enthusiasts who need to justify thier decision to drive an automatic.
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IowaSuby 10:25AM (10/08/2007)
The whole point of a sportcar is fun, as Johnny Rotten has pointed out. I have a '06 A3 sport with DSG and a '07 Subaru GT 5 speed. The A3 sport with DSG and paddle shifters is way more fun to drive than the GT. I'd suggest you try and drive one before you send off a hasty not so nice reply. My only complaint is that the paddle shifters should be on the column instead of attached to the steering wheel. Taking a corning while trying to downshift is a problem because the steering wheel turns and so do the shifters. Since you can shift on your own, you can still get every ounce of power out of each gear while not relying on the "auto" tranny, which really really likes to get to sixth gear as fast as possible when not in sport mode. The problem with a manual tranny, and I've always owned one, is that you have to find the gear, clutch, move your hand off the steering wheel, which like the video points out, takes time. Anyway, both are fun and just because one person likes one tranny over another doesn't mean someone has to get their knickers in a bunch. The other reason to pick an auto with DSG is that one's partner might not know how or might not like to drive a manual. My wife hates rowing gears, which means you really only have 1 car to rely on. I think the DSG gives you the best of both worlds and my A3 is truly great fun to drive.
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dean 1:56AM (10/12/2007)
I'm sure some people find shifting gears through a stick more fun, and some find shifting gears through a paddle with no clutch pedal more fun. Its all a matter of taste. Fun is subjective.
However, this really suprises me as how much autobox tech has really come along! I thought it would be a very long time until an auto could match a stick on a track, but the DSG looks to represent a huge leap in autobox technology! Amazing.
I also hear that its not as tempermental as a sequential manual. Which is a pretty good plus. Someone should try to pit those two together if possible.
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Milce 12:03PM (10/08/2007)
Fat Bastard,
Thats not damage on the DSG car, its a camera.
You can see the same thing on the manual car at about 2:08 left in the video. No damage, no problem.
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Tim Russell 4:24PM (10/08/2007)
ibn "I'm calling shenanigans"
Since a DSG is a manual design that's been automated I can see it. Seek out a cutaway diagram and it'll clear things up. With a conventional automatic you have a torque converter which slips when it's not locked up which wastes energy and the pump eats up some power as well. Many automakers are going to the twin clutch design and I expect we'll see more of them.
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Tom Winch 5:14PM (10/08/2007)
To anyone (Johnny Rotten) who thinks that you must drive a manual transmission car to be a true enthusiast and the sequential shift manuals are the be all-end all in racing, I have only one word in reply. IDIOT! If sequential shift transmissions are the answer, they'd be used in Formula 1. F1 uses advanced DSG technology, as do most supercars. They might offer conventional manuals for die-hard stick shift guys, but the DSG is the future. Obviously you haven't driven any DSG vehicles. And when it comes to racing, unless you have the background to speak authoritatively on the subject, you should just shut-up. I currently race a 7's Only Racing Mazda GT car in SCCA GT-2 and NASA Mazda GT classes here in SoCal. My racecar has a Jerrico 4 speed because it is spec'ed in the Mazda GT class, but I would jump at a paddle shift DSG if I could.
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MikeW 11:05PM (10/09/2007)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ScBruTdjaI
I got out of following F1 when the V10s were phased out, and even then the idiot commentators were talking about 'seamless shifts' that were coming down the pipeline. Well if it is seamless, then it isn't a shift.
F1 (back in the V10 days) use a rotating barrel that had groves which followers that actuated shift forks, which operated the dogs. A sequential manual, in that you could not skip gears (7).
A double clutch transmission can still operate like a manual transmission. [double clutching] Say you wanted to shift from 6 to 2, cluctch in, pull it out of gear, clutch out, rev up the clutch, clutch in, put it into 2nd, then let out the clutch, and be on your way. The computer can do that, if it so desires.
4 to 2, clutch in, out of gear, into new gear, clutch out, away you go.
VW has integrated a parking pawl that manual transmission cars don't have. Bonus points.
Also rocking a car, if Haldex can recognize a mini-spare, then the powertrain electronics can recognize rocking a car by successively shifting from D to R to D to R to D, and temporarily (say 30 seconds or so to keep things from overheating) keep reverse and forward engaged simultaneously for better fore/aft progress. Is is 1,3,5 / 2,4,6 R or R 1 3 5 / 2 4 6. I don't remember.
Well if (when) VW moves to a 7 speed DSG for front drive, it better be 1,3,5,7 / R,2,4,6
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George K 11:21AM (10/17/2007)
Working in the world of motor sport transmissions some clarification is obviously needed.
The only drawbacks of the DSG are:
It is heavy - up to 40 kg more than a manual
It is expensive to make
The clutches appear quite small and it is possible that they would not handle too much competition use. According to some tuners they do not have a large safety margin.
Apart from that they are brilliant, and can be driven in full auto mode, sport mode - where they hold on to each gear until max rpm, or as a manual. For competition there is the benefit of left foot braking and launch control. In terms of economy they should be the equal of a manual - albeit the VAG diesels seem about 3-5% worse (compared with at least 10% for a full auto).
I am sure that until someone comes up with a better answer they will be the best all round option for quite a long while.
In F1 the seamless gearshift in general is also an adaptation of a manual gearbox, but has the dog engagment mechanism replaced by a variety of systems that pre-engage the next gear so that there is minimal or even no interuption to the transmission of power Difficult to apply to road use as stop start traffic and parking are far more challenging technically.
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