Does AFS Trinity's hybrid deserve the hype?
The video above is a news report about AFS Trinity Power's new hybrid from CNN. The New York Times has an article about the hybrid which will be at the Detroit Auto Show. Grist, a popular green blog, says they were interviewed for a report by CBS New that will air this weekend. Some of our readers have sent tips and commented on the hybrid as well. AFS Trinity converted a Saturn Vue hybrid and says the vehicle now gets 150 miles per gallon for just $8,700 extra. Is this a break through? I don't think so.
I have posted not-so-positive things about conversion companies before. I honestly admire their work and think they are doing great things. The only problem is the automakers want to make hybrids now and I see little possibility conversion companies can compete with them by converting cars that automakers plan to convert themselves. For example, one of our readers commented about AFS in a post I wrote about GM's CEO hinting of big news on the plug-in Saturn Vue, almost exactly the same kind of car AFS Trinity is showing.
You tell me readers, do you think AFS Trinity made a better hybrid than GM with "off the shelf parts"? Even if they did, GM will have many good come-backs like, we make the VUE and AFS voids your warranty, if a reporter asks them about it. I simply don't see how AFS Trinity wins here. A little advice for conversion companies: don't convert GM's hybrids. GM plans to release a hybrid every 3 months for the next 4 years. A little advice for the popular press too: read AutoblogGreen :D
[Source: CNN, New York Times, Grist]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
stan 5:31PM (6/04/2008)
GM certainly doesn't have a franchise on good ideas. They screwed up in the 70s, again in the 90s, and continued to stick their collective heads up their SUVs until day before yesterday.
Furthermore, ASF is not a shade-tree-mechanic operation, not with the collective talent that developed the X-Hybrid.
As for the Volt, I'll believe it when I see it...if I live long enough.
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Buddy Eldorado 4:11PM (5/25/2009)
When they get an electric car that runs on 5 "D cell" batteries please let me know... Meanwhile, I'm going to go to sleep for the next 20 years. When I wake up I expect
the "D cell" automobile to be a fact not fiction. (:-) (:-)
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Tim 11:38AM (1/13/2008)
Lascelles, you’re missing the point!
Here's a more detailed report at greencarcongress.com.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/01/afs-trinity-unv.html#more
The key here is AFS Trinity's use of ultracapacitors to buffer energy spikes to and from the battery. This is a simple and cheap way to keep the battery from heating up thus improving safety and lifespan. It also means that a wider energy range of a more simplistic (and cheaper) “off the shelf” pack can be utilized without sacrificing lifespan.
Now, what’s the NEXT logical step?
What if AFS Trinity could use cheap, Firefly deep discharge lead acid batteries in series with ultracapacitors instead of the Volt’s exotic Li-Ion pack!
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/01/firefly-energy.html#more
AFS Trinity believes that they can retrofit ANY existing SUV (or pickup) into E-REV-40s for around $8,700.00 (much less with Firefly) including batteries, controllers and electric motors! This SAME system in lighter passenger cars would make them E-REV-80s. WE DON’T NEED TO REPLACE THE ENTIRE ROLLING STOCK TO HAVE E-REVS!!!
GM’s Volt could get priced out of the E-REV-40 market if they stubbornly stick with expensive exotic batteries without ultracapacitors.
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Dexter Gilbert 12:07PM (11/22/2008)
I have been monitoring AFS Trinity's activity for some time now. It seems to me that many are under the impression that they intend to offer retrofits to existing hybrid vehicles which would void factory warrantees. I have not got this impression at all. It seems to be their intent to offer their patented system to the auto industry. This may or may not be the best solution for plug-in hybrid vehicles, but their argument is perfectly viable and deserves consideration from automakers. Don't forget that the intermittent windshield was not designed by the innovative abilities of the Big 3.
Tim 11:51AM (1/13/2008)
Here's another REPORT by EVWORLD.COM
AFS Trinity Perfects Plug-in Hybrid Saturn Vue
By Bill Moore
AFS Trinity president Ed Furia briefs EV World on his firm's breakthrough plug-in hybrid conversion.
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1386
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Dave B 11:56AM (1/13/2008)
Tim,
Excellent explanation. I hope you are correct. My question is, how long can these batteries last--how many charges and is it a decent deal for the consumer? If it is, I'll jump rather than waiting for the Volt. I just want my 40+ mile EV NOW!
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Tim 12:25PM (1/13/2008)
Dave, Lead acid batteries are a fraction of the cost of Li-Ion. It's not so much "how long they will last" as "what is my return on investment?"
Example: The Volt’s exotic Li-Ion pack may cost around $15,000/each on the low side when mass produced. A Firefly lead acid pack that would do the job when coupled with ultracapacitors would cost around $1,500.00. What if the Firefly pack only lasts 1/2 as long as the exotic Li-Ion pack? Answer: who cares! By the time that the Firefly pack needs recycling, better and cheaper battery technology will be available anyway. Why buy a $1,000.00 camera when a $5.00 disposable one will do a "good enough" job?
GM is letting the perfect become the enemy of the good.
Using ultracapacitors to buffer energy spikes during acceleration and deceleration make it possible to use smaller, cheaper and less exotic batteries that are available NOW.
Personally, I think GM has known this for years! How could they not have known? I’m beginning to smell fish, but the race is TRULY on now that this cat is out of the bag.
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Snowdog 12:42PM (1/13/2008)
No. NO! (Cue video from Daily show of Sen. Ted Stevens shouting NO!).
A: These guys claims are completely unsubstantiated. They don't have to submit to EPA for their numbers.
B: What is warranty on the (expensive) battery pack, I bet it is like 3 years and you have no guarantee these guys will be in business to honor it.
C: More misleading PHEV bullshit. Journalists have to stop meekly quoting the ridiculous MPG number for PHEVs. They are meaningless. Instead, ask them two questions: What is the electric range and what is the mpg with the battery run down. They quote electric range as 40MPG and this type of vehicle won't get 35mpg when burning gas. So their 150mpg must be based on charging every day and not driving more than 60 miles between recharges.
That 150mpg is complete unadulterated BS, I am sick of seeing that misleading crap published.
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Tim 1:00PM (1/13/2008)
Snowdog, it sounds like you also had too much coffee this morning.
Follow the other links to other reports. Both the EVWORLD.com and Greencarcongress.com reports have LOTS of details.
Again the key here is NOT about AFT Trinity! It’s about using ultracapacitors to buffer power flow so that less exotic, smaller and cheaper “off the shelf” batteries can be used to produce E-REVs.
Keep your eye on the prize due, eye on the prize.
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Snowdog 1:04PM (1/13/2008)
Also noted reading some of the articles on this piece. $8700 is NOT the conversion cost (which is likely well over double that) but the estimated costs to OEMs if they mass produced vehicles with this setup.
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GoodCheer 1:14PM (1/13/2008)
Lascelles: So let me get this straight. The reason that this is not a breakthrough is because GM will also be doing it eventually? Or that it will void the warranty?
What do those things have to do with whether or not this is a breakthrough?
It seems like your only criticism of conversion companies is that they will have a hard time competing with the automakers once they get on the ball. So don't invest in the companies.
If I came up with a cure for cancer but didn't have the manufacturing capability to produce it, and Astra Zenica came out with one a few years later, would my work be "not a breakthrough"?
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al mcg 1:22PM (1/13/2008)
I think you're missing some of the points made in a couple of the AFS videos. I've seen them all. They admit that the technology is all ready here, however, one of the key points is the big car companies have not developed the storage and charging systems at the level AFS has (they own the patent for this). They explain their use of ultra capacitors and detail the advantage over current storage/charging technology currently in use. Their use of currently available components isn't as important as the creative way they strung it all together. You also say the car companies will win. I guessed you missed the video where the CEO of AFS says he hopes the big car companies picks up their technology and integrates it into their hybrid models. He further states that if they don't, AFS will attempt to bring it to market themselves. Ok, granted this is a very tough task, but hopefully GM and friends will have enough sense to adopt the AFS design. If the big three already has it...... where is it? We've seen what AFS cab do already.
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almcg2 1:33PM (1/13/2008)
Addition to my comment above. One blogger stated that he smelled fish. I do too. My dad used to be an exec for GM in Ca. He told me many times in house rumors that GM had bought the rights to various carburetion devices etc and then shelved them, never to be seen again. The implication was always that the development of these devices would threaten big 3 auto maker or oil company technology and or profits. The assertion being that there was much collusion between these entities to ensure their profit margins. Hmmmmm.... does anyone smell rotting tuna?
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Lascelles Linton 2:27PM (1/13/2008)
Everyone, Ultra-capacitors, lithium-ion... these are not new technologies. They are in place now and are planned to be in place in many cases. YES, the auto-makers made a MASSIVE mistake, ignored and insulted hybrids for YEARS. I have literally, posted interviews where you can see the light go off in Rick's head. THEY GET IT NOW! GM lost market share, the EV1's light squeak became a massive roar of Gore winning the Nobel and CAFE passing: the market worked. The electric car is a 100 years old. I don't think there is not much you have to invent.
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Dave 1:50PM (1/13/2008)
Conversions are a good thing: My car with its old engine and transmission would see a much longer life with a new electric drivetrain.
But the numbers LL, the numbers. Where are they from, what do they include. 9 thousand for the parts, or for the installation as well? MPG equivalence based on what? CO2, or the cost of fuel? With what figure used for electrical generation?
The numbers are losing meaning as the hype increases.
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Lascelles Linton 2:26PM (1/13/2008)
Snowdog, I was going to get into that but I find it's better just to avoid because numbers can be twisted VERY easily. But yeah, all of that looks funny to me too.
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Lascelles Linton 3:37PM (1/13/2008)
GoodCheer,
"Lascelles: So let me get this straight. The reason that this is not a breakthrough is because GM will also be doing it eventually?"
...yes. That's the definition of breaking through that I understand. BTW I think AFS says THREE YEARS to production and GM is less than TWO for their plug-in. Possibly, as I write in an article I link to in this one... MONTHS! I even joked they would sell the plug-in "on the show floor."
I am sorry, believe me, I would be happy to correct this article and write about an amazing discovery that I totally missed that upstaged but GM at the big Autoshow and I would love to say the main stream press got it right. But I don't see that.
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Tim 3:19PM (1/13/2008)
Here’s AFS Trinity’s ad for their XH-150 E-REV-40 featuring Dr. Joseph Romm, Assistant Secretary of Energy, US DOE 1995-1998
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-cPHtQ0tTw
Here are some more interesting videos: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=xh-150
Who do you trust more...
AFS Trinity Power Corporation who has no known affiliation with big oil. http://www.afstrinity.com/company.htm
Or GM, who has been working with big oil to keep us addicted since 1931 and has an extensive record of lying, subversion, planned obsolesce, and killing or lobbing against any technology that reduces our dependence on gasoline?
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/07/377/
Common, this is NOT rocket science!
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Lascelles Linton 4:06PM (1/13/2008)
Almcg2, I have watched all the videos. You can't say the technology is here and I have patents. That does not make any sense. Again, GM is releasing a plug-in very soon. In fact, they have said they want to be first which you could argue pushed Toyota to do it. What's being held back? I am sorry but I don't think CNN, CBS, Times just called them up and started this hype. They knew what they are doing and I don't see anything new.
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Tim 4:08PM (1/13/2008)
Lascelles; Why is GM not doing this?
Either they are (a) incompetent boobs or (b) opportunistic liars. Their track record says that (b) is the correct answer and that GM is trying to addict us to Ethanol or Hydrogen which will be manufactured by big energy (which GM now directly owns part of) because GM knows that we can't make E-85 or H2 ourselves at home like we can with solar electricity. It’s similar to their “planned obsolesce” strategy to maximize profits.
GM = stall, 1/2 truth, stall, lie, stall, it's coming, stall, we're working on it, stall, maybe with a breakthrough, stall, look at ethanol, stall, look at Hydrogen, stall, look at our concept Volt, stall, we’re getting close to a battery breakthrough, stall look over there, stall, just be patient, stall, and wait... FOREVER!
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