Bob Lutz video: it's "immaterial" who's first on EVs, guarantees "internal" release date for Volt
The video above is GM chairman Bob Lutz eating a little crow on Bloomberg Television. In the past, Bob has said GM would beat Toyota by "a year" in the lithium-ion battery race. Now, that Toyota has said they will release lithium-ion plug-in hybrids ahead of GM's new EVs, Bob does not want to play anymore, saying it's "immaterial" who's first by a few months on next-gen EVs. The Bloomberg interview also has some juicy details about the Saturn Vue plug-in (it will have an 8- to 12-mile electric only range) and Bob says the Volt's internal release date is November 2010. Here is exactly what Bob said:
Bloomberg: Lets talk about Toyota. You know those guys. They came out yesterday and said they are going to have a plug-in electric car on the market by 2010. That's the year that you said as well. So who is going to win this race?
Bob Lutz: Well, I think it's immaterial who comes out a couple of months ahead of somebody else. And notice that they said they didn't say plug-in electric car, they said plug-in hybrid. That will be our Saturn Vue plug-in hybrid which still relies mostly on the gasoline engine coupled to a hybrid system which improves your mileage and it will have about an 8 to, maybe somewhere between 8 and 12 mile electric range. Not to be confused with the Chevrolet Volt, which is a genuine electric vehicle, which operates electrically all the time with the engine only coming in, in case of absolute necessity to recharge the battery.
Bloomberg: So, you are going to argue we're still going to be #1 when we get to 2010 coming out with an all electric plug-in car?
Bob Lutz: Yes, we are coming out with two. There is a great deal of confusion, frankly, among the media and the public, the difference between a plug-in hybrid and an extended range electric vehicle. We're doing both. The Saturn Vue is going to be a plug-in hybrid which will get about 8 to 12 miles purely electrically before it starts operating on the piston engine. The Volt is an electric vehicle, which in many circumstances will never use the piston engine at all.
Bloomberg: Lets clarify about the Volt though. Because it depends on a lithium-ion battery. You're still trying to figure out how to fully develop that technology. You're still sure you are going to have that ready for 2010? Can you give me a guarantee right now? (Smiles and laughs.)
Bob Lutz: (Sighs.) Yes and no. Yes, I guarantee that the official internal General Motors target date is November 2010. You know, so far, the batteries are not a hold up. All of the testing, bench testing we are doing on battery packs, they fully meet our expectations.
Bloomberg: When do you start production then? You gotta start production of those batteries sometime in 2009 to have them ready for the Volt. When do you start production?
Go below the fold for more Bob.
[Source: Bloomberg]
Bob Lutz: No, battery pack production can start at the same time as the vehicles.
Bloomberg: How about, Toyota, as you know, they are hugely profitable. They have been that way for the past two years. They got a much larger budget for capital spending. They wanted to catch to you guys, they could spend limitless amounts of money on technologies to catch up, can't they? That's a disadvantage compared to GM.
Bob Lutz: Yes and no. However, the fact that we are not earning anywhere near as much money as we would like to earn or should earn. But the point is, we can fund our research and development. We are spending as much on fuels cells as Toyota is. I would think we are probably spending more on hybrids right now than Toyota. So, one of the reasons we could probably instantaneously improve our profitability if we stopped doing as much advanced research and development but we see that as our future. Never forget, that's one of the reasons why I always insist on keeping the creative spirit alive in a company because money isn't everything. Less money with more creativity and more new thinking will get you more.
Bloomberg: Lets tick off, we got 90 seconds, I want to tick off a few cars. The new Hummer concept model.
Bob Lutz: HX.
Bloomberg: Yeah. Can you change the image of the Hummer as being a gas guzzler. Your sales are down pretty dramatically in the past year. How is this thing going to change your image?
Bob Lutz: Well, I think that and other Hummer vehicles are going to have to come down in size, weight, engine size and up in fuel efficiency, if the brand is going to have a future. No question about it.
In my first article about the delay in the Volt, one comment said "This incident goes to show the dangers of braggadocio and hubris" and another said "someone PLEASE point out the *promise* there." You are both right. I have to admit I thought the press coverage saying the Volt was "late" was a bit unfair. I even think I saw the Bloomberg reporter laugh a little when asking the questions about the exact release date, which he probably knew Bob could not give. There was a race though, with both sides pumping it (American Toyota staff are anyway), not just the press and GM might have well released a PR with an official release date.
Lastly, right now, while a little worrying, all of this is not a big deal. The delay is only a few months for the driveable Volts and at most a year for the release. If it does not go out any further than 2010, I really think it's forgivable and will probably be forgotten. Also, and this is really worth mentioning, Bob Lutz, even if you disagree with him, he rarely pulls his punches or lacks enthusiasm. I have not transcribed anyone else this much at the Detroit Auto Show because the guy is a really, great public figure for GM. Bob knows the car industry and loves the car industry. So, whatever comments you make, take it in that spirit, please.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tony Belding 7:38PM (1/15/2008)
Lots of confusion, lots of what I consider bad reporting going around. . .
Toyota are claiming they'll put PHEVs on the road "by 2010", but if you look closer at their statements they are talking about a few hundred vehicles in fleet testing. By comparison, Lutz is talking about making 60,000 Chevy Volts in the first year of production. There could hardly be a greater contrast between the stated ambitions of these two companies. And yet, the spin from most media seems to be that Toyota are going to get the jump on GM and steal all their sales. I don't get it?
Chevy Volt delay. . . The schedule of the first drivable test mules has slipped a couple of months. GM have not yet spoken of any change in the target for the production car's release to the public. They are still saying what they've been saying for a while: probably 2011, maybe late 2010 if they push really hard. Yet, somehow this has been spun into big problems for the Volt program.
On batteries. . . GM have not reported any hitches or glitches in their battery program thus far. That doesn't keep the press from blaming the batteries for whatever problems they imagine GM may be having. Tesla have gone through the same thing with the press. I don't know why reporters seem to be hung up on the idea that something's got to go wrong with the batteries.
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jake 8:05PM (1/15/2008)
Hmm, seems that all the automakers are jumping in and calling series PHEVs, "Range extended electric vehicles." I still can't get over that, the Volt is technically a series hybrid except with a plug. Take away the plug and you get left with a series hybrid, so it's still a hybrid, not any more of an electric car than a hybrid like the prius. If toyota can match the 40 mi electric only range, the toyota PHEV will be no less than the Volt. The Volt is still a technically PHEV.
That aside, I agree that it really isn't a big deal if GM misses target by a few months. The program seems to be rolling along fine, and if they created a fine tuned product then they will likely do fine.
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Lascelles Linton 8:39PM (1/15/2008)
Tony Belding,
You should have seen my Toyota article :D I don't think Toyota gave hard numbers or said we will not release to the public. The race was not who would sell the most anyway. It was who would be first. Besides, if fleet sales is cheating and GM is still ahead, what's stopping GM from announcing fleet sales of the Volt or Vue plug-in in 2009? Also, there is a delay in the Volt. Sure, it's not batteries and not big but it's something. I don't put anyone ahead. I am for keeping BOTH their feet's on the fire until we have the keys in our hands.
Jake,
On the subject of PHEVs, I thought Bob's point was a little wrong because unlike the Vue, Toyota's plug-in will probably have a much higher electric only range than 12 miles. Also, I don't think either have confirmed this but that top speed in electric mode is important too for the hybrids. If Toyota has a plug-in that goes say, 40 miles and 55 MPH on electric only, you can call if a plug-in car with a range extender if you ask me.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09/27/video-prius-will-go-62-mph-and-beyond-in-all-electric-mode/
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Mort 8:36PM (1/15/2008)
To me, the only way this car makes sense is if the ICE generator and battery both have 110v AC so it can be used to back up home power systems like refrigerators and furnaces, etc.. Otherwise it is an overweight, underpowered, over-expensive, and over-complicated POS. People need a cheap EV runabout that goes 50 miles @ 50 mph. Is that so hard to understand?
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Lascelles Linton 9:03PM (1/15/2008)
Mort, You sound like you are in the market for NEV with those numbers. What people will buy and what they need are two very different things :D Maybe when Zap or Miles release, these models from the major automakers will be proven wrong? I agree though, I am all for re-releasing the EV1 and Rav4e instead of going through all this trouble!
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09/22/nyt-normal-affordable-electric-cars-dont-exist/
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Rojo 9:37PM (1/15/2008)
On the subject of the Volt being termed a series hybrid or an RE-EV, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, I think.
Take away the plug, it's a hybrid.
Take away the on-board generator, it's an EV.
I think the Prius is a little easier to define as *only* a hybrid.
Of course you guys know this, but in case other people don't...
My reasoning (and I'm sure this is how Bob reasons it) is that the Prius would require a re-engineering of the whole power plant to remove the ICE since the electric motor and gas engine are both interconnected with the drive train. It was built and engineered from the ground up as a hybrid.
The Volt was/is/will be built from the ground up as an EV with some method of range extension, which may not necessarily be an ICE at all.
But yes, in the end, if the gas isn't used in either vehicle (regardless of the capability) does it really matter? I think that's a philosophical question... but a 'race' requires the technical approach! :P
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Tony Belding 9:58PM (1/15/2008)
What happens if electricity isn't used in either vehicle? From what we've heard about it, it could be possible for a Volt owner to never plug in the car and use it entirely from gasoline power. And yet, GM would still insist that it's an electric car.
From where I sit, the option of using grid electricity or gasoline (or E85), as seems appropriate, makes the Chevy Volt not merely a hybrid: it's the perfect hybrid. By comparison the Prius is a half-baked hybrid. It earned the title by default since there were no real, full hybrids on the road.
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Mort 10:20PM (1/15/2008)
LL, Thanks, you hit the nail on the head. It really boils down to corporate fascism. I can get an electric bicycle, or a trike, but put that fourth wheel on the stupid thing and now you have an NEV. Really, this country is turning into the politburo.
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michael e. v. knight 1:35AM (1/16/2008)
Bob Lutz: Well, I think it's immaterial who comes out a couple of months ahead of somebody else. And notice that they said they didn't say plug-in electric car, they said plug-in hybrid. That will be our Saturn Vue plug-in hybrid which still relies mostly on the gasoline engine coupled to a hybrid system which improves your mileage and it will have about an 8 to, maybe somewhere between 8 and 12 mile electric range.
Bob Lutz needs to contact AFS right away. They could have a 40 mile electric only plug in out this year with off the shelf parts!
Near the cutaway BYD F6-DM hybrid in the depths of the Detroit Auto Show, AFS Trinity Power Corporation is displaying a new hybrid SUV (actually a converted Saturn Vue) that gets more than 150 mpge thanks to something AFS calls the Extreme Hybrid (XH). The SUV recently achieved "more than 150 miles per gallon of gasoline based on the EPA Combined Urban/Highway Driving Cycle with 6 days per week of 40 miles per day in all electric mode and one day at 100 miles with assistance of the gas engine." The test reportedly returned mpge numbers of around 170, but AFS wants to use 150 so as not to leave people disappointed if they drive more aggressively or under different circumstances than the test was run in. How do you like them apples?
Peace,
michael e. v. knight
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jake 1:35AM (1/16/2008)
@Rojo:
The series PHEV term has really already been accepted as the offical term even before the Volt came out. The "Range extended electric vehicle" (REEV) started out as a marketing term. It is used exactly as a way to separate the Volt from the Prius. In a sense, it seems easier than explaining the difference between a series hybrid and a parallel hybrid. In another sense, it gives GM a chance to make up for axing the EV-1 and to be one up on Toyota even if they release a PHEV Prius as GM can say "but ours is a full ELECTRIC car, yours is just a hybrid."
Your "take away the generator" comment raises a good point. Take away the generator and the Volt becomes a NEV, not a full fledged EV. What stops a manufacturer from releasing a series PHEV with 10 mile (or less) range and calling it a full EV? That's why I maintain the REEV term is still marketing speech to mislead customers, much like the "micro-hybrid" name.
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jake 2:13AM (1/16/2008)
@Rojo
clarification on my point:
Since the Volt can reach highway speeds I supposed it's unfair to call it an NEV when the generator is removed. Just a range limited EV. My point still stands though, what stops a manufacturer from using the REEV term on a series PHEV that can go only 10 miles (or less) in EV mode (I believe Lutz even pointed out that the electric range differentiates the Vue from the Volt).
However, seems like most manufacturers are accepting that name as I think I've seen Chrysler use it once too. I suppose I should take Lascelles' advice and accept the REEV term as a term for any PHEV that can go highway speeds in EV mode and a range qualifier of 40 miles.
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Lascelles Linton 7:53AM (1/16/2008)
I expect the government to sort it out. There are probably a few plug-in hybrid tax cuts coming. Much larger than hybrid tax cuts too. It would be smart of Toyota to add a plug-in without upgrading the battery much just to get new tax cuts. I think they reached the quota already on the hybrid tax cut.
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Nucbuddy 10:06AM (1/16/2008)
Jake,
Good question. The reason that GM wants the Volt known as a "range-extended electric vehicle" is the fact that CARB gives a full ZEV credit for each electric car, but only one-fifth of a ZEV credit for each hybrid. If GM did not care about the CARB classification, then it naturally would not have given the Volt such a huge electric-only range.
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Matthijs 10:36AM (1/16/2008)
OMG Bob changed his name to Robert Lutz can you believe it?
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A.Brien 1:04PM (1/16/2008)
I don't want to dissapoint the people here too much
but i think that batteries will never work for car
transportation. For years hydrogen fuelcell cars from all the majors car manufacturers are on the roads and running without problems, we cannot say the same for batteries cars, they all show limited
results especially if the batteries have to last the duration of the car like 12 years or more. There is no batteries cars from majors compagnies
on experimentation on the roads but there is many fuelcell cars from ford, honda, toyota, gm , etc,on the roads running fine. The major problem
is the hydrogen infrastructure that's why i recommand putting a water tank with an inboard
water electrolyser to solve that problem then we can live with cars and truck and planes and trains and industries, etc for all the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OWDcWoXHs
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Lascelles Linton 1:22PM (1/16/2008)
A.Brien, I am aware of that video and plan to write about it and the subject on batteries in cars.
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John 2:15PM (1/16/2008)
A. Brien,
I'm would have to disagree with your comment. Rav4 EV is STILL running on the original NiMH batteries and still go 60-80 miles which originally started out with 120 mile range, out since 1997. The battery is NOT a problem. It's the buracracy and the business aspect of licensing the battery and other issues that is the obstacle. It's political as well since this development of batteries is attuned to the fact that if batteries have too much success, too fast then it'll topple their long business gas car model.
Hence, "who killed the electric car".
For proof, EV1 and rav4 EV both are more capable than any other electric run vehicle, even compared to the proposed PHEV by Toyota or GM for 2010 or 2011.
That only tells me all this discussion on the Volt besides the techincal naming, is really going back into the past to go forward. We're better off with a re-manufacturing of those original production EVs.
Anything under 60 miles of electric range and 75MPH is a flat out JOKE. Lutz says 12 mile range for the Vue?? 40miles for the volt? That's telling your kids to start FAILing in school when they can get A's. LOL.
IF and hopefully when Tesla, succeeds with it's first roadster, they'll be a serious contender in challenging anything that both top major automakers are making.
The EV techology, 120 miles with NiMH and 250-300 miles with Li-ion, exists to meet most people's (80%)freeway and city traveling.Automakers aren't making these EVs because THEY DON'T HAVE TO.
The fuel cell technology is great but I believe it's a waste of money. They've put in more money for fuel cell tech than EV tech simply because it would replace the Gas Model.
And your hydrogen proposal is, well a bit without facts. Check out "Hype About Hydrogen" by Joseph Romm. Hydrogen MIGHT be ready in 20-30 years because of hydrogen storage issues, making hydrogen which is absurdly costly and consumes more energy than simple electricity, and you'd have to be able to match the EV or PHEV market to be viable. It's virtually impossible to compete against EVs.
As you have posted the water fuel car is a great alternative but hydrogen cars arent. E85 is not viable. It takes 3 times more energy and produces just as much pollution as gas making it. To fill up hydrogen at a hydro-station is ridiculous. The infrastructure costs way too much compared to putting recharge ports for EVs(which you can recharge at home) or putting tap water into your car.
The problem with water fuel cars, which has existed since the 60s is that no business will be derived from the fuel which makes automakers reluctant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw
But you can also check out why plugging-in is the best solution, audio only:
http://www.nextgearshow.com/search/Plug-in+Hybrids
Nucbuddy,
I second what you said. It makes sense why GM is pushing for the distinguishing of the two types of "hybrids" without really enhancing true EV performance.
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John 3:17PM (1/16/2008)
According to the March 13, 2007, issue of Newsweek, "GM R&D chief Larry Burns . . . now wishes GM hadn't killed the plug-in hybrid EV1 prototype his engineers had on the road a decade ago: 'If we could turn back the hands of time,' says Burns, 'we could have had the Chevy Volt 10 years earlier.'" [39]
All the more reason why I remain skeptical.
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Lascelles Linton 6:08PM (1/16/2008)
Article John mentions...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/36484/page/3
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Tony Belding 4:24PM (1/16/2008)
Who are these crazy people who keep talking about water-powered cars? That can't possibly work without overturning the foundations of all known laws of science.
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