Rumor: Toyota to race hybrid in Le Mans
According to AFP, the Japanese newspaper, Yomiuri Shimbun is reporting Toyota plans to bring a hybrid to the Le Mans 24 hour race in France. An unnamed Toyota official told Yomiuri Shimbun, "Audi proved the superiority of the next generation diesel engine at Le Mans. Toyota wants to do the same with the hybrid." Yomiuri Shimbun also says that to make a hybrid race car, "Toyota has to significantly reduce the vehicle's weight and increase its efficiency." Toyota last raced in Le Mans in 1999 and placed second but now hopes a hybrid race car will take them to victory.
Update: The original article which also mentions Toyota will use a "special capacitor."
Related:
[Source: Yomiuri Shimbun via Agence France-Presse (AFP) article]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Dave 7:35PM (1/19/2008)
In stop and go driving, a hybrid makes sense.
At LeMans, not so much.
Reply
Lascelles Linton 8:33PM (1/19/2008)
Dave, What about breaking for cornering? In a 24 hour race, I could see that adding up :D If they win, I think hybrids might become almost standard.
Reply
GoodCheer 10:12PM (1/19/2008)
I would think a hybrid system would be a huge advantage in racing for the same reason it's an advantage in stop and go driving. In a race you're either full on the throttle or full on the brake at all times. A system that can recover and discharge all that energy quickly would save on fuel (and thus pit-stop) time and weight. It seems like a perfect fit for a capasitor system since no long-duration energy storage is required.
Reply
Lascelles Linton 10:30PM (1/19/2008)
I found the original article. See update. Seems they will use a capacitor! BTW lets not forget, electric motors output more power faster than piston engine. This might be the first car to prove it on tack :D EVs are kicking butts and collecting names...
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11/25/ny-times-writes-about-the-history-of-electric-drag-racing/
Reply
Phil L. 10:31PM (1/19/2008)
For NASCAR-style oval racing, a hybrid doesn't make much sense. For endurance racing with widely varying speeds and lots of advantage to be gained from braking? Hybrid technology makes sense.
Reply
tankd0g 2:12AM (1/20/2008)
Maybe GM will bring a hybrid Vue. /sarcasm
Reply
why not the LS2/LS7? 2:51AM (1/20/2008)
You'll NEVER store enough energy in a capacitor to make a difference.
However, if the rules at Le Mans are as skewed toward hybrids as they are toward Diesels, then Toyota will do very well. There's nothing superior about the R10 Diesel engine, it's just that the Le Mans rules allow it to carry more energy in its tank and have a motor 50% larger than a gas motor and a turbo with over twice the boost. If that wasn't enough, the air (power) restrictor is much larger and the minimum weight in the class was raised so that the Audi Diesel wouldn't be at as bad of a weight disadvantage against gas cars as it would have if the rules were not changed.
Reply
Lad 5:01AM (1/20/2008)
I suspect Le Mans is a follow on race for their Supra GT with 400hp V8 with in-hub electric motors, super caps and regen braking. If it holds together, it will terrorize the other teams. See the following for more detail: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/07/toyota-hybrid-r.html#more
Reply
Lascelles Linton 5:35AM (1/20/2008)
why not the LS2/LS7?, In addition to the battery. With a capacitor it's not about storage but release time. INSTANT TORQUE! Wow, I can't believe I am talking about experimental electric motor parts like I might a turbo. This is how it's suppose to be. Experimental stuff tested on the track. We won't have to show videos of electric cars smoking gas cars in drag races anymore because we can just say see how Toyota kicked butt side by side at Le Mans :D
Reply
why not the LS2/LS7? 12:17PM (1/20/2008)
Lascelles:
Honestly, I expect the capacitor is less because they want to put OUT a lot of torque as take it in.
What I'm saying is that a hybrid, a usual one is optimized for slow braking. That is, braking at say 0.2G. There is a rate at which the hybrid system can turn electrical energy into acceleration and it has the same limit at turning deceleration into electrical energy. So, if you brake hard in a normal hybrid, only a small amount of the energy is being turned into electricity, most of it is going into the brakes. If you can't capture that energy, you can't use it coming out of the corner.
I think Lad is spot on here. Toyota is probably not challenging in the prototype classes (the top classes of custom cars in Le Mans) and are probably instead planning on bringing their already-tested hybrid GT-class car to Le Mans. I would suspect they would have no difficulty getting an invite from the ACO for that car (Le Mans is invite only) and they would love the publicity and opportunity to measure their car up against some of the highest GT class cars.
I also predict that they'll get killed. They'd get absolutely slaughtered by the top runners in GT1. I can't quite be sure what would happen in GT2, but there sure are a lot of good cars and teams in GT2.
Reply
jake 2:04PM (1/20/2008)
@ why not the LS2/LS7?
I think you are mostly right. The capacitor is likely to be there to help to store energy more quickly from braking. However, Lascelles has a point, with that also comes with a ability of releasing large amounts of energy quickly. It acts as a buffer between the battery and the motor/generator, allowing higher performance without stressing the battery. So it kind of works both ways. The capacitor would be perfect for the quick charge/discharge required in Le Mans. However, alot rides on the implementation of the system, but that shouldn't be a problem with the engineers at toyota. I don't think we have ever really seen a hybrid proven in race conditions, it should be interesting.
Reply
Lascelles Linton 2:43PM (1/20/2008)
why not the LS2/LS7?, You are right, there is no reason to think a hybrid will take a great race like Le Mans because it has never in the past, as Jake mentions and hybrids are not known for their speediness. I don't think Toyota would enter to lose especially when they are under competition from GM on hybrids this year. Either way, hybrid technology advances.
Reply
GoodCheer 7:51PM (1/20/2008)
Let's look at the numbers:
A 1000 kg car going 50 m/s (about 110 mph) has 1250 kJ of kinetic energy. (1/2 * m * v^2).
3600 Joules is 1 Watt-hour so
1250 kJ = 350 Wh.
Current tech supercaps can hold ~6 Wh/kg, so you would need about 50 kg (80#) of caps to accelerate the car to 110 mph. Not bad really. (of course there's also weight in the control system, electric motor etc.)
But MIT have demonstrated 30 Wh/kg supercaps, which would weigh 12 kg, and EEStor claim 200 Wh/kg, which would weigh 2kg.
I don't really know enough about vehicle design to figure out the beark-even point for weight vs. efficiency, but in terms of energy storage they may soon be all set.
Discharging (or absorbing) that energy at 6 kW/kg, 50 kg of current tech supercaps could deliver 300 kW, or about 400 hp, which I would think would mean the problem is traction limited, not energy storage limited.
Anywho, this is certainly a very limited analysis, but I think it looks hopeful.
Reply