Toyota tells Popular Mechanics battery production is the "biggest hurdle" to plug-in cars
How high on the list of things keeping us from plug-in electric cars do you put the "quality production of batteries?" According to Popular Mechanics, Toyota puts it right up top, ahead of even battery chemistry. Here is exactly what the article says:
A source inside Toyota tells PM that getting the lithium-ion packs into mass production-not the chemistry-is the company's biggest hurdle. On a trip to Japan late last year during which we drove a plug-in Prius prototype, Toyota engineers admitted to PM that producing cells en masse while upholding the company's usual quality was proving very difficult.
The article starts off by talking about electric cars, battery chemistry, then battery production and ends with top 10 electric rides. Here are Popular Mechanic's top 10 plug-in cars:
1. Cadillac Provoq
2 .Chevrolet Volt
3. Chyrsler EcoVoyager
4. Dodge ZEO
Gallery: Detroit 2008: Dodge ZEO Concept
5. Fisker Automotive Karma Hybrid
6. Jeep Renegade
Gallery: Detroit 2008: Jeep Renegade Concept
7. Mercedes-Benz S 300 BlueTec
8. Saturn Flextreme
Gallery: 2007 Opel Flextreme concept
9. Tesla Roadster
Gallery: First Drive: Tesla Roadster
10. Toyota Prius
Gallery: Review: 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
[Source: Popular Mechanics and tipster Matt]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Karkus 3:00PM (2/06/2008)
Doesn't surprise me at all.
And that's also the reason why I think that even IF the Volt does actually come out in 2010, it will be in limited numbers until they can get the battery production scaled up.
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Tony Belding 3:07PM (2/06/2008)
For once I agree with Toyota, it's exactly what I've been saying too.
It's amazing how affordable internal combustion engines are, when you look at what goes into them, and the requirements of durability and reliability they have to meet. It's only possible because they are produced in huge numbers, huge amounts of capital has been invested, and that technology has been relentlessly cost-reduced in a highly competitive industry for decades.
The same can happen to lithium-based batteries -- and I'm confident that it will happen, but it may take 10 or 15 years for that process to run its course. At the end you may see those prices reduced 80% or even 90% from where they are now.
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meme 3:21PM (2/06/2008)
1) Where's the Aptera on that list? $27k electric car with 120 mi range, 85mph top speed, that Popular Mechanics raved about, and it didn't even make the list?
2) Why would there be any surprise about this? It's the price of batteries that are the limiting factor when it comes to sales. It was the same with the EV1; with the lease priced based on an assumed purchase price of $34-$44k, they got ~1000 sales, with a small additional number in waiting (5k expressed interest, but the followup rate was low when the price and stats were reported). Yet, GM spent $80k per vehicle on them. Most of that was battery costs.
Which brings us back to the Aptera and their design philosophy: by producing a car that's light and ultra-aerodynamic, even though doing so poses extra production costs, they cut the battery requirements significantly, thus helping circumvent this requirement. This puts it in my price range, which is why I'm buying one ;)
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Dad 3:17PM (2/06/2008)
"Toyota engineers admitted to PM that producing cells en masse while upholding the company's usual quality was proving very difficult. "
GM has said almost the exact same thing, but if Toyota says it it means more than when GM says it?
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Lascelles Linton 3:36PM (2/06/2008)
Dad, GM said it would be hard but they could it. For everyone else, frankly, I find it a little hard to believe. Batteries are in billions of laptops, gadgets, remote controls, etc. "We can't make a good battery consistently" seems like an incredibly stupid reason to me. Sorry, just being honest :D Since when did car companies make batteries anyway? And batteries are in cars... NOW! They are not exploding into flames. What am I missing?
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meme 4:22PM (2/06/2008)
"What am I missing?"
About three orders of magnitude in energy storage and one order of magnitude in battery lifespan, as well as half an order of magnitude in needed cost reductions.
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Mort 4:43PM (2/06/2008)
I'm more worried that whatever battery they do use is easily and economically recycled.
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Lascelles Linton 4:54PM (2/06/2008)
meme, The exact same chemistry is used in a ton of products. The main point is, they don't make batteries. Car companies put stuff together and brand it. The quality of production is super technical and no one cares because it's not a problem. I want to talk to an engineer that will tell me exactly why putting chemicals in a box so hard to do and assure quality. Making a battery with a slightly different chemistry should not be that hard. My point about scale is they do that today. Sorry but I think this reason will evaporate like "hybrids cost too much." Remember that? Now, Toyota is saying, we will put them in every car and GM's mild hybrids cost less than heated seats upgrade to your car. "I am not sure I can make a lot good" is not a reason, I'm sorry. Maybe I am alone on this one but I just don't get.
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Karkus 5:01PM (2/06/2008)
Recycling should be the least of your worries.
1) batteries last way longer than you probably think they do (Prius taxis have over 250000 miles)
2) Toyota pays good money for old batteries ..you'd be stupid to throw these away (and besides how are YOU going to get them out of a car in the first place)? You'd bring it to a dealer if something went wrong, and I can guarantee that they aren't stupid enough to just throw them away.
3) Li ion batteries contain a lot less valuable and toxic metals (then NiCads or even NiMH).
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Karkus 5:43PM (2/06/2008)
"Making a battery with a slightly different chemistry should not be that hard."
Well it IS. Trust me. There's all kinds of undesirable side reactions that can (and do) occur in batteries. And unless you first learn LOTS about electrochemistry, an engineer won't be able to just explain it to you in a few minutes.
"Now, Toyota is saying, we will put them in every car"
They used to say that, but are no longer committed to their original schedule.
Please stick to blogging about things that you are very knowledgeable about. You don't seem to understand batteries, and yet you are insisting that they should be so easy to make?
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bpe2 5:49PM (2/06/2008)
about the RAV4 EV Batteries from wikopedia, I wish I could see a NICE suprise... Whether or not Toyota wanted to continue production, it was unlikely to be able to do so, because the EV-95 battery was no longer available. Chevron had inherited control of the worldwide patent rights for the NiMH EV-95 battery when it merged with Texaco, which had purchased them from General Motors. Chevron's unit won a $30,000,000 settlement from Toyota and Panasonic, and the production line for the large NiMH batteries was closed down and dismantled. Only smaller NiMH batteries, incapable of powering an electric vehicle or plugging in, are currently allowed by Chevron-Texaco.
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Wise Golden 5:53PM (2/06/2008)
I think that you might be missing what is being said “between the lines.” Both GM and Toyota have talked about this difficulty, but for some reason, GM feels okay about it now. I think that in this type of a technology race, certain types of batteries might be protected by powerful patents and since the technology is so young, the patents continue to give exclusivity to the owners. GM got a step ahead of Toyota in signing exclusivity with these battery companies and has in some cases provided funding. That funding for development may have given GM the sole rights to the technology for a period of time – not sure on this.
Another factor: Batteries are very heavy and require a lot of raw material to make. Some of the material is expensive and rare in Japan. By definition, the batteries almost have to be made in the country of use to be economical, and in the US, there are only so many players. Ford has one of them already. GM has at least 2 makers. Not many existing companies left for Toyota to partner with and that may be the difficulty.
Also, I’m impresses to see the top 10 list of electric rides includes 8 American cars.
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GoodCheer 6:02PM (2/06/2008)
Ain't it telling that of those 10, only 2 are actually on showroom floors.
I agree that the Aptera should be there. It's got better specs and is close to delivery than any of the other 8 on the list.
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Joseph 6:37PM (2/06/2008)
I don't trust PM, so I think it was an error in their journalism. (My case in point, who rates the Tesla Roadster number nine versus vehicles that don't even exist as working prototypes?)
Batteries cannot be produced reliably?
Do they mean they don't know how to mass-produce the certain batteries they want to mass-produce, reliably? Or do they mean they don't know how to do it in a cost-effective fashion?
Obviously, batteries can be mass-produced reliably. Tons are made each year for consumer electronics. But, the large-format batteries that an auto-maker is probably looking at right now is a different story since large-fromat batteries haven't been thouroughly researched.
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meme 6:41PM (2/06/2008)
bpe2: Incorrect. Cobasys relicensed with PEVE in 2006 allowing them to make large-format batteries. Oh, and the Vectrix scooter uses Gold batteries, which are licensed from Cobasys.
Don't believe everything you saw on "Who Killed The Electric Car". The reality is that the EV1 and all of the others were loss leaders made in tiny (unprofitable) volume, rented at less than half their production price, and only designed to make it so that the big car companies could continue doing business in California. When the CARB rules were overturned, the companies discontinued their EVs almost immediately. If GM actually cared about the EV1, you think they would have sold off the patent for its batteries? They had already shut down the part lines for much of the rest of the car. And since when is it wrong for a company to sue other companies that are making their products *and refusing to pay royalties*? And you really think that if GM cared about EVs and actually saw them as having huge profit potential, you think they *could* be bought off by an oil company? They do hundreds of *billions* of dollars per year. You think an oil company can not only give a trillion dollar payoff, but do so without the IRS and SEC noticing? And if GM was trying to hide the technology, why on Earth would they donate dozens of cars to universities and museums? How much more *visible* could you make the technology than that? And now you hear the conspiracy theorists saying that the fact that the Smithsonian took the EV1 down and replaced it with a robotic car, that was GM pressure on them. What logic -- GM *donates an EV1 to them* so they can make it be viewed by *millions* per year, and then is so horrified that it's visible that they blackmail them into taking it down. Is GM supposedly run by lunatics?
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meme 6:43PM (2/06/2008)
Er, Gold Peak batteries, not "Gold" batteries. :)
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Bill 6:52PM (2/06/2008)
The Aptera is an enclosed cockpit motorcycle, not a car - no crash tests, only 2 adult capacity.
As for batteries - you can do a lead-acid conversion today - but the batteries will last you 1-2 years.
NiMH is no longer a serious contender for EVs - everyone has moved on to lithium-based battery research.
Conspiracy theories aside, Cobasys was _always_ willing to produce large-format NiMH batteries in OEM quantities, but no auto manufacturer was interested until very recently (GM with the Aura, Vue, and Malibu hybrids)
That's OEM quantities, measured in the thousands (more likely tens of thousands), not a few dozen at a time for hobbyists.
You might as well blame Ovshinsky for not giving away his NiMH patents for free.
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Mort 7:05PM (2/06/2008)
I don't know how anyone can say that batteries that are not currently being made will automatically be recycled. What about the plastic cases on lead-acid batteries? I very much doubt that Li-Ion will be 100% recycled in an environmentally friendly way. I further doubt that PV panels will be recycled either. All that stuff is heading for the landfill.
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Lascelles Linton 7:23PM (2/06/2008)
Karkus, You are basically saying what the automaker are saying which is a pat on a head and "you don't understand, this is hard." Okay, fine, the public and myself is just too stupid to understand but why do you need new batteries in the first place? There are plenty of people adding a few batteries to Prius now and doing great. Why not do it now? The Volt can have amazing range with just a range extender. Isn't the point of a range extender or hybrid to have not have a strong battery or gas engine? I know other bring it up but why not just re-release with RAV4 and EV1? If this is so impossible and so far away and they are be hassled SO MUCH, with all those pesky CAFE, clean air laws, why waste hundreds of millions developing the tech? Keeping an electric car, which they say will have low sales numbers cannot be as much, right? BTW I got more than a few minutes :D If you can't explain that, we can go back to the chemistry class :D
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Dad 7:18PM (2/06/2008)
15 "Don't believe everything you saw on "Who Killed The Electric Car". The reality is that the EV1 and all of the others were loss leaders made in tiny (unprofitable) volume"
Thank goodness someone (#15) with a sane voice and not being an anti-GM "killed" the electric car lunatic. You are speaking the truth, thanks!
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