I don't think that the reason the Germans trail everyone else is because they make high-powered cars. It certainly is true that some makes sell heavier and larger models, but this is only part of the problem. The German manufacturers also make small vehicles (including the smallest, i.e. the Smart, which also has the smallest engine) but they still trail everyone else in emissions.

The other reason for Germany trailing these lists is that German cars, more generally, pollute far more than their competitors. The following list of top cars in terms of CO2 emissions
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/information/how-to-use-the-data-tables.asp#petrol
has only the Smart among the top petrol vehicles, while much larger French, Italian and Japanese cars still outperform the Smart. Among the diesels the first German car is in 18th position! To add insult to injury, German models are by far the most expensive. Consequently I would have expected the VW Fox, Polo, Golf, the Audi A3, Mercedes Class A and so on to take all the top positions.

There is talk of the Germans again succeeding of late in watering down the EU proposals for CO2 reduction. The latest rumor is that German cars would be exempt so long as the averages are achieved overall thanks to the Italians and French. Thankfully the German lobby group is not halting national legislations across Europe, which are going full steam ahead. Nowhere more so perhaps than in Spain and France where SUV and executive car sales have collapsed by as much as 56% for the Jan-Mar 2008 period compared with 2007. UK and Italy are also following this path, but at a slower rate.

Reply

↓↑report

"Fiat in particular also promotes natural gas-fueled vehicles, having sold 50,000 of them in Italy in 2007."

50k! That's an amazing amount of natural-gas vehicles to be sold. Hurray for for Fiat.

Reply

↓↑report

Italy has twenty times the CNG vehicles than second-place countries Poland and Germany. So that CNG cars are an important part of their strategy. Furthermore, Europe's largest producer of CNG equipment is a small Italian company by the name of Renzo Landi. What I find curious, and an issue I'd urge Fiat to correct, is that the record CNG stats is achieved despite offering very few models with the CNG option. Marketed under the name "NaturalPower" the only models available are the Punto (the old one), Multipla, Panda and Doblo. Why the heck they don't offer a CNG Grande Punto, Bravo and 500 is beyond the likes of me.....To the best of my knowledge not a single Lancia or Alfa model is offered with this option....

If they expanded their CNG offering perhaps they could bring their CO2 average to below 100 g almost overnight !

Reply

↓↑report

CNG vehicles are relatively popular in Italy in spite of their higher purchase cost, lower performance, reduced trunk space and reduced range. The primary customers are presumably fleet operators. The reason is simple: gasoline and diesel are taxed heavily in Italy whereas CNG is not.

However, Italy's domestic gas reserves are declining rapidly. The country could switch to biomethane but is pursuing the new South Stream pipeline from Russia instead. With Silvio back in the saddle, don't expect that to change. Indeed, expect CNG taxes in Italy to rise, since imports of natural gas represents a capital outflow comparable to that of importing oil.

Reply

↓↑report

I still don't understand people who buy a Fiat 500.
There are cheaper cars with very similar CO2 emission ratings:

Renault Clio
Hyundai Getz
Ford Fiesta
Ford Fusion (The European car)

All that cars are cheaper and more practical than a Fiat 500. And all this car producers have better reliability ratings than Fiat.

Reply

↓↑report

In terms of being green or not CNG cehicles have definite performance advantages. Beyond the lower CO2 emissions, they also have negligible pm and other emissions. With the sales figures and existing number of CNG cars on the road, we're of course talking about anything but fleet operators as the primary customers. Why so many privately owned cars are CNG is presumably the fact that CNG costs so much less than petrol in Italy, and when you buy a new car with CNG already installed on the vehicle, this is completely paid for by the government in the form of a rebate. This doesn't mean that fleet operators don't exist who have leaned for CNG, it's just that the overwhelming CNG cars are privately owned.

I'd hate to think where the Fiat CO2 average would be today (as well as the CNG sales figures in Italy) if Italy had introduced the "idiot tax" as well, which exists presently in Spain and France.

Reply

↓↑report

Italy is already heavily dependent (and has been so for some time) on foreign supplies for CNG.

There is, in my opinion, another twist to the CNG story in Italy. A very popular car in Italy (and indeed the top seller across Europe in the A segment) is the Fiat Panda. If the CNG option were only available on the other 3 models I doubt that so many CNG cars would be sold (given how the other models are less popular). An "Aria" version was presented some months ago of the Fiat Panda. This had amazing emission values and used a 70-30 fuel mix of methane and hydrogen. Fiat are quite serious about this concept and the intention would be, if this model were to go into production, to use the existing CNG distribution network in Italy to distribute this mix. I'm not really a believer in hydrogen as a viable alternative, but this would imply introducing hydrogen on a wide scale for the first time in Europe. On a much smaller scale this has somewhat already been done in Iceland.

Reply

↓↑report

In my earlier post I mentioned the performance advantages in terms of emissions of CNG vehicles. In the current climate of rebates and idiot taxes across Europe (except Germany which has none whatsoever) this issue can become very important when it comes to buying a car. A buyer who renounces on buying a gas guzzler in favor of a much smaller Fiat Panda (this is true for the petrol version but usually even more so for the CNG version) not only avoids the 2500 euro stinger in France and Spain, but also receives a sizeable bonus in Spain, France, UK and Italy. Taken together, we're talking well over 3000 euros, which for these car price ranges, is very interesting indeed.

Indeed I guess this is what would attract so many buyers of the Fiat Panda CNG. Another is that the CNG system is paid for a by a government subsidy, and another still are the fuel costs, around 3 euros /100 km compared with roughly 9 otherwise. With the heavier vehicle weight the acceleration time and top speed are lower than what they would be otherwise, but presumably the aforementioned advantages are swaying buyers in droves.

In terms of trunk space and range I don't see any disadvantages. In the case of the most popular CNG car, The Fiat Panda CNG, the extra equipment has all been neatly arranged below the floorboards, giving you exactly the same trunk space as the other models. Range isn't a problem either, as it does 300km on the highway, and in no case less than 200 km.

Reply

↓↑report

Herr Eddy,

Bitte, allow me to help you improve your English:

In English it's "All these cars are cheaper..."
and not "All that cars", as well as "all these car producers..." and not "all this car producers"

may the force (and Adolf) be with you always!

Reply

↓↑report

eddy, the 500 out sells those cars you mentioned because it is better looking inside and out. I know some folks on this blog don't believe it, but design is a critically important reason why people buy the cars they do. It's not like the 500 is terrible on gas or CO2 either.

Reply

↓↑report

@throwback

my advice is not to try reasoning with eddy. I've tried it and it's impossible. where hard stats are rebuked and the views are clearly "Adolfian" one is wiser to give up.

the 500 not only won the European car of the year and the autobody award (and another one last week for which I can't even remember the name) but, at least from my point view, has more importantly a record-breaking safety rating from the euroncap organisation. before the 500 it was unheard of for a car of this size getting the full 5 stars and 35 points. This is the safety rating for drivers. To put things into perspective the huge Audi Q7 has 4 stars and 30 points for the driver. Now, without being a genius, I guess it's fair to say that as far as driver safety is concerned, the larger and heavier the car, the better. Thus the following figures, give plenty of food for thought:
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/audi_q7_2006/262.aspx
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/Fiat_500_2007/298.aspx

As to there being no 500 CNG version I guess it's comprehensible in the end. Fiat's concern at the moment is increasing capacity to meet demand, and the CNG issue will come up, if it comes up, some time further up the road.

Reply

↓↑report

Trying to keep tabs with the original thread, I'd say the issue of CNG vehicles isn't that relevant. Though the CNG sales in relative terms are rather interesting (compared to other countries), CNG sales in Italy still constitute a very small percentage of total car sales. In terms of total car sales in Europe for 2007 this number becomes irrelevant. (I forgot to mention BTW that beyond the environmental impact and economics of CNG cars, another very positive feature is the durability of these cars)

For the record CO2 emissions from Fiat one should look again at the table above:
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/information/how-to-use-the-data-tables.asp#petrol
Hence the current CO2 average for Fiat can be put down fundamentally to things like the emissions performance of the current multijet (as far as diesels are concerned) generation of engines.

From the table, Fiat's take the 5th and 13places overall in the diesel table. If one considers then that these are high volume models compared with some of the models listed (which is similar to saying that price should then also be factored in) then it becomes apparent that Fiat are doing quite well from the environmental point of view. It's also apparent that both the French and Japanese can give Fiat a run for their money and have very competitive cars as well.

Reply

↓↑report

So what?
The Renault Clio is beautiful, practical and gets 5 stars in NCAP. What is "Adolfian" about comparing a very good French car with a Fiat 500.

Comparing the Fiat 500 to the Hyundai Getz makes sense:
Again 5 stars in NCAP and very similar CO2 emissions. Prhaps the Getz is an ugly car, but it is reliable and about 2500€ cheaper than the Fiat.

Reply

↓↑report

The lies and extremist views are beyond any doubt "Adolfian". Just a week ago, French cars were totally unreliable (and the Clio is most certainly an excellent vehicle - and not just today to suit your ranting), and now it's Italian cars. There is nothing remotely authoritative to suggest either:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3129581.stm

You are lying when you say that the Getz has 5 stars.
Unless you are talking about another euroncap, the Getz has 4 stars and an abysmal 25 points:
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/hyundai_getz_2004/199.aspx

Reply

↓↑report