Lutz talks EV1 and Volt with the Detroit News; first lithium Volt now running!
When GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz speaks, controversy usually follows closely behind. Unlike many high ranking executives Lutz often wanders off the defined script such as when he recently commented on global warming being a crock of .... I sure wouldn't want to be one of the PR handlers having to spin his words. In his latest chat with Detroit News columnist Manny Lopez, the electrification of vehicles was obviously front and center as it often is these days at GM. The EV1, of course, comes up and the accuracy of Lutz's claims will certainly seem open to debate. As recounted by Lutz via Lopez, GM tried and tried to find buyers for the EV1 but no matter how much they dropped the price, only about 800 people were willing to step forward. That was the reason for leasing the vehicles, according to Lutz. That statement seems highly dubious if EV1 fans are to be believed. Certainly the market for the EV1 was extremely limited because of its practical limitations and the high cost, but it sure seems like more than 800 people were interested. Or maybe its a case of the hindsight that revealed there were actually 40 million people at Woodstock. Lopez and Lutz apparently also talked about how out of touch some (actually most, based on my own experience) people are with the realities of building a car. That's an area we try to address here on ABG regularly by discussing the technology that makes these modern machines go and what it takes to make it happen. One-off prototypes are easy to build but they aren't going to cut it when you have to meet modern customer and regulatory expectations. On a final note, Lutz revealed that the first Volt mule is now running with a lithium battery pack in it.
[Source: Detroit News]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tim 10:44AM (4/24/2008)
What is our average Daily Driving?
According to the U.S. Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics, Omnibus Household Survey:
78% of us drive less than 40 miles each day.
85% less than 50 miles
90% less than 60miles
92% less than 70 miles
and
92% of all One-Way trips are less than 40 miles (with a plug at each end of the trip)
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/12/06/how-did-gm-determine-that-78-of-commuters-drive-less-than-40-miles-per-day/
Electric cars would be recharged at night just like a cell phone! Most owners will also keep one of their old ICE “smokers” for those occasional long trips until they realize that it’s foolish to pay property tax, insurance and maintenance on an ICE car that they almost never drive. It is far cheaper to just rent a new ICE car or a “hybrid” or take public transportation for those occasional trips to see grandma and rent an electric car at their destination.
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Throwback 10:55AM (4/24/2008)
My average daily driving is approximately 140 miles. I have a 130 mile round trip to work. Call me when I can get a 4 seat electric vehicle with a 200+ mile range for under 35K. However, I am very interested in the Volt/Flextreme if the price is under 35K.
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phil easler 11:10AM (4/24/2008)
Throwback - so you could get 57% of this long commute with electric and 60 miles on gas. That's not that bad.
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Will Sterling 11:23AM (4/24/2008)
Throwback,
Have you thought of moving? That is a ridiculous commute.
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meme 12:58PM (4/24/2008)
Throwback --
Ask at work about a charging port. If you could charge at work, your typical sub-$35k EV has around ~120 miles of range. That would easily work for you.
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Tim 11:37AM (4/24/2008)
Throwback,
The Volt ($30K after tax credits): 140 mile round trip with the first 40 miles all electric and 50 mpg for the remaining 100 miles would give you an average trip mpg of 70-mpg plus about $1.00 worth of electricity. So, 2 gallons @ $4.00/gal = $8.00 + $1.00 electricity = $9.00/commute. If you could plug in at work the 80 miles of the 140 would be electric so you would use 1.75 gal of gas for a $7.00 commute.
With a 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDi ($24K) (50 MPG highway/40 city) with an averave of 45 mpg means that on the same trip (140/45) you would use about 3.11 gallons of diesel @ $4.50/gal = $14.00 commute. (twice the fuel costs)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4235586.html
If you work 5 days/week, 50 weeks/yr or 250 days x 7.00/day in fuel savings, the Volt would reduce your annual fuel costs by $1,750. There is a $5K (approx) diff in vehicle capitization not including debt service so it would take 2.9 years for you to break even.
What’s the future real cost of fuel and the real differnece in mainenenace, depreciation and other costs? Who knows? Can you make electricity and biodiesel at home, YES.
Everything is application/ emotion based and the choice is yours. It’s good to have choices.
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Mark 12:10PM (4/24/2008)
*only* 800 people were interested? There were lots more BEGGING to buy it...
I think Bob Lutz is a crock of .....
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Bill 12:13PM (4/24/2008)
Just like with the current fuel cell cars, the lease price of the EV1 was massively subsidized and in no way reflected actual costs.
Sure, I'd like to lease a brand new top of the line Mercedes turbodiesel for $99/month with nothing down...
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Throwback 1:04PM (4/24/2008)
I have moved for work before. Guess where my old job is? India. The industry I am in, off shoring is a regular occurrence. My SAAB 9-3 gives me 32 mpg every day on regular so I am looking for a substantial upgrade in mpg. My wife and I both hate how the Prius drives and while like the Civic hybrid, the trunk space is way too limiting. She is due to replace her car this year and we will be looking at the new TDIs she likes the Jetta wagon. As for me, I'll wait for the Volt, my car is paid off and running great I'm sure I can get another 3 yrs (90K+ miles) out of it.
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why not the LS2LS7? 1:21PM (4/24/2008)
Lutz wasn't even at GM during the EV1 days, he has no reason to lie about it.
Plenty of people expressed interest in the EV1, but it was difficult to actually sell (er lease) them because wanting and being able to have are two different things.
In order to have an EV1 you had to put a charger in your garage. Which cost thousands. And that meant you had to have a garage. If you rent your house, are you going to put thousands into putting a charger in the garage? If you rent an apartment, do you even have a garage? If you do, are you allowed to modify the garage to get 220V to it? If it's detached, is there even 220V to it and can it be metered to you instead of the complex, because you're going to use a lot of power.
And to top it all, it was a two seater. Most people who owned their own house (and thus could put in a charger) were families with kids and didn't have all that much use for a two seater.
This story played out over and over as GM contacted people on the interest list and explained what you needed to do do have one and people bowed out. This is referred to in some places when people bitch that GM tried to "unsell people on the car". If GM didn't explain what you had to do to own one, it would have been dishonest and extremely problematic for people who now had a lease on a car they couldn't actually drive.
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Throwback 1:54PM (4/24/2008)
why not the LS2LS7? you have hit it exactly. The compromises required to lease an EV-1 where huge. The problem is people saw a movie that claimed there where thousands of buyers for the car, and Gm purposely lost billions to kill the car. Conviently not mentioned is that Toyota killed their RAV-EV for the same reason. Lack of interest, the only difference is Toyota sold RAV-EVs to some folks.
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ug 5:26PM (4/24/2008)
"My average daily driving is approximately 140 miles."
Then you're screwed.
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Yanquetino 3:26PM (4/24/2008)
Liar! "Only about 800 people were willing to step forward"?! That has been the "official" line from GM for years. I am surprised the Lutz would still be trying to sell it. I guess he doesn't mind egg on his face:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/541959067
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Dad 5:39PM (4/24/2008)
"13. "My average daily driving is approximately 140 miles."
Then you're screwed."
And to solve it soo easy, find someone to car pool with.
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Throwback 8:59PM (4/24/2008)
Not screwed at all. I live in a great town and have a great job. I'm not complaining, like most folks I have reduced my spending on other items to compensate for higher gas prices.
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jmspearman 10:25PM (4/24/2008)
Funny how Lutz rhymes with Putz. Tell Bob to quick whinin' about me not understanding how difficult it is to build a car, blah, blah, blah. Spend more of your time lighting fires under the asses of potentially out of work engineers and less time flapping your leaden jaws in front of the media.
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Peekoyle 11:00PM (4/24/2008)
I understand GM put a billion dollars (they lost 38billion last yr) into the EV1. But I wish they would stop lying about it, I think that they would gain alot more customers and respect if they just came out and said we really didnt want to build it in the first place. If they just said 'Yeah the we handled the EV1 project badly but look here is the Volt!' rather than the same tired old lies like 'We couldnt get anyone to buy the EV1'.
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Yanquetino 12:09AM (4/25/2008)
In mid-2000 GM closed the EV1 plant.
On October 10, 2001, GM sold the controlling interest in NiMH to Chevron/Texaco.
On February 11, 2002, GM wrote this letter to the customers on the EV1 waiting list:
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February 11. 2002
Dear EV Enthusiast,
Thank you for your previously expressed interest in the EV1 and/or GM advanced technology vehicles. Although we do not currently have any EV1's available for lease, we are sending this packet to update our records and to determine if you might be interested in the assumption of a current EV1 lease, if the opportunity arises.
A lease assumption is where you would take over the payments and other lease obligations of the original lessee from that point forward, and complete the terms of the original lease, in return for the use of the EV1 covered by that lease. If a lease assumption opportunity does occur, this update of our records would permit us to contact those who are interested and expedite the lease assumption process.
Please be advised that because each individual lease has its own characteristics such as lease start and end date, payment schedule, payment amount, and charger restrictions, we cannot quote any exact prices until a lease assumption becomes available. But we are providing you with the following general information that you should consider in deciding whether to be a candidate for a future lease assumption.
If you assume an EV1 lease. your EV1 lease payments could range from $299 to $499 a month (not including sales tax). The cost to install a charger at your home usually averages around $2,500, but could range from $1,000 to $10,000. (Installation cost depends on the age of your dwelling, electrical requirements and codes. etc. For example, older homes may require electrical panel upgrades.) In addition, you could also be asked to purchase a charger from the original lessee, which could be up to an additional $650. There may also be a title transfer fee, or other official fees, in addition to applicable sales tax, related to the assumption of an EV1 lease.
If you are still interested in the assumption of an existing EV1 lease, please complete the enclosed GMAC credit application and customer profile, and return them in the enclosed envelope by March 11, 2002. Returning these forms does not guarantee there will be an EV1 lease available for you to assume, nor does it commit you to assume a lease. However, once we receive your completed forms, you will be notified that we have you on record as being interested in a lease assumption of an existing EV1, and this will enable us to expedite the lease assumption process if the opportunity arises. If we do not receive your forms by March 11, 2002, we will remove your name from our EV1 lease assumption records.
If you have any questions, please feel free to call 1-888-4EV1-SMILE.
Sincerely,
Rick Ostrov
Manager - Electric Vehicle Marketing Services
----------------------------
Okay. YOU be the judge: does it sound to you like GM was truly and sincerely trying to promote the EV1 in this letter? Or just the opposite? Honestly, would YOU be interested in ANY deal for ANY vehicle described like this?
The proof of the pudding is that GM knew fully well when they sent this letter that they had ALREADY closed the plant, AND sold the battery patent to Chevron. Whoops! Yet they continue to refer to this effort as "evidence" that too few consumers showed any interest in the vehicle!
What a crock of caca. Lutz-Putz should be ashamed of himself for continuing to repeat that banal smokescreen in front of the microphone.
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Chris 7:30AM (4/25/2008)
I think it hilarious how much faith people put into online petition sites. Let alone how much the story morphed over the years since the EV-1, it seems GM gets more evil and evil with each telling; any why? because those who want others to think that they know something continue to spout the same fallacies and invent new ones.
the key is, the so called EV-1 "truthers" story keeps changing while GMs doesn't. Why? Because "truthers" need the change when one tact fails to gain traction or gets dismissed.
As to that letter for leasing, welcome to the wonderful world of lawyers. If it were not for people suing companies for any little thing you wouldn't need such worded documents to protect yourself.
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Dave K. 10:34AM (4/25/2008)
I'm one of those people that wanted an EV1, I always understood the limitations and expenses involved. The truth is GM was never willing to sell any EV1s, only lease them, and only to people in California(except for a few corporate customors). I would never lease a car, it's a bad deal for me. But it's also true that many other car companies needlessly crushed their EVs as well, GM stands out only because they made such a good EV, and then so throughly and ruthlessly destroyed them, wouldn't even sell them to us as scrap, waviers and all.
I find it hard to forgive them but if they really bring in the Volt, at an affordable price(Toyota lost money on the Prius for many years) then I will.
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