American electric car companies prefer Project Fastr Blastr to Project Better Place
Project Better Place has been making lots of headlines with their plan to create a battery swapping and charging infrastructure in different countries. At the recently held Alternative Fuels and Vehicles conference, a panel of representatives from some American electric car makers suggested they would prefer to see a slightly different scenario for the U.S. market. Nay to the whole battery swapping thing, yea to fast-charging stations.
Here are some quotes from the participants as reported by Jennifer Kho of greentechmedia:
- Bryon Bliss of Phoenix Motorcars: "With the ability to do rapid charge, we see that playing more of a role than stations to exchange them." "There are a lot of complications [in exchanging the batteries]."
- Richard Kasper of Chrysler's Global Electric Motorcars said the investment that battery-replacement stations would require would be "very significant."
- Jeff Boyd of Miles Electric Vehicles: "Fast charging is here; it's available. You can put a station at a Starbucks for a cost of $125,000. There's no reason to wait [for something else]."
[Source: Greentechmedia]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Tim 4:08PM (5/21/2008)
Given that 78% of us drive less than 40 miles each day and 92% of all One-Way trips are less than 40 miles (with a plug at each end of the trip), rapid charging would only be necessary around 8% of the time.
http://www.gm-volt.com/2007/12/06/how-did-gm-determine-that-78-of-commuters-drive-less-than-40-miles-per-day/
V2G will MORE than offset any of additional power requirements from that relatively tiny bit of additional on-peak power requirements and the changing driving habits of people moving closer to work due to high transportation costs will take care of the rest.
In other words, if you charge at night during off peak, you can do so for around $4.00. If you use a rapid charging station, expect to pay 3 times that. Don’t worry; it’s STILL a fraction of the cost of using gasoline or leasing and swapping a [possibly damaged] battery.
MOST Americans want to own and pay off instead of leasing FOREVER!
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meme 4:49PM (5/21/2008)
Heck yeah! Sign me up as a supporter of Fastr Blastr. Modern EV batteries can take it. Of the phosphates, titanates, and modern spinels, the phospates seem to have the shortest cycle life, so we'll pick them. Over on rcgroups, an amateur, without a charger specifically designed for A123s, ran them through a thousand abusive cycles -- 3-4C charging, 6-8C discharging (he even did a set going down to 0C). To put that another way, that's charging in ~15 minutes and discharging in ~8 (if your EV can discharge that fast, you're going to be squished like a bug by G-forces ;) ). After a thousand cycles, they had only lost 25% capacity. For a vehicle with a 120 mile range, for example, that'd mean abusing your vehicle nonstop that badly for 120 miles (rather than typical usage patterns -- 90% of your mileage nearby -- i.e., slow charging -- and 10% far away -- i.e., fast charging). Now, if the phosphates can take it, surely the titanates can!
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meme 4:52PM (5/21/2008)
Erm, 120,000 miles, not 120 miles.
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dan 5:02PM (5/21/2008)
I still stand by the idea of swapping batteries. These batteries, no matter how good, will not take the abuse for high current charges. The people who spoke at AFVI have all invested heavily in speed charging and thus want that to come through.
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Mike Z 5:31PM (5/21/2008)
Swapping batteries sounds like a good idea on paper, but once you look at the logistics and risk management issues, things go down hill fast.
IE think what happens if a swapping station runs out fully charged battery packs?
The reality is that swapping battery packs that will weight 500-1000 lbs each will never be that easy or quick.
Fast charging too right now fails to make a lot of sense.
Really fast charging makes sense when you consider pure-EVs (Not a RE-EV or a PHEV). The reason is that for RE-EVs and PHEVs the amount of energy sold is rather small, and so the potential profit margins are also small. For example, for a Volt, you would need 8kWh to fill'er up. Even with a 300% markup over utility (~$.10/kWh), each sale would only net a few dollars and the overhead for a high-powered charging station and circuits would likely erase any profit. For RE-EV and PHEVs I only see a real business case likely being 'topping off' stations in places like malls and parking garages just delivering standard 220 volt.
The only real business case for rapid charging would like either come from a fleet operator (ie a delivery service with a few charging points strategically located throughout their service area) or for stops along the interstate for rapid charging pure-EVs. After all, assuming a ~200 mile range EV (I fail to see sub 200 mile EVs as being acceptable to the general public) with rapid charging ability and most people charging at night for day-to-day use, the only substantial use for rapid charging would be interstate driving. In that case you would have the likely customer traffic and profit margin to justify rapid charging stations.
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TomtenT 5:43PM (5/21/2008)
Just like to humbly point out that it seems smarter to not rule out any one alternative.
There are strong undisputable arguments for an exchange system, as well as there are for fast charging.
The important thing is to get EVs produced & used !
What is to say there's a conflict between these lines of system - I'm sure they could develop in co-existance.
To get EVs within price-range QUICKLY, the option to buy the car without the [ present ] gruesome cost for the battery pack, could be decisive for average people.
Also, with time, as technology improves, and prices go down, the choice of renting/leasing a battery pack might turn out the winner.
Small car manufacturers might have an easier task producing their EVs for a standardized battery pack.
- Obviously the Big Boys wouldn't want independents to participate : they'd want it ALL "in-house" ( in THEIR house ).
Finally, I wouldn't want to think ALL THIS TALK of a system with fast charging stations is just a smoke-screen to delay actual production of EVs. - Hm . We'll see ( future will tell ).
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Mike Z 5:53PM (5/21/2008)
Actually at this point, I'm not in favor of EVs.
I think that from a impact angle, PHEVs and RE-EVs are going to be preferred from a 'net net' perspective for the time being.
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TomtenT 8:54PM (5/21/2008)
Oh .
Clearify my earlier post :
by "EVs" , I'm talking of Electrical Vehicles IN GENERAL.
Regarding the motor principle (electric), I referred to the vehicles as "EV".
( I thought "pure battery powered vehicles" were going to be called "BEVs" ? )
Bit of an abbrevation confusion :-) ?
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Kevin Nugent 7:54PM (5/21/2008)
I think that idea is dumb how about we implement high rate of charge charging station in the city to recharge vehicles a fast as they can . Some evs can recharge in a hour given the right power source . Lets give that option
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Lad 10:30PM (5/21/2008)
Project Better Place is all about copying the cell phone business model: You buy the car and subscribe to the batteries and their energy for so much a month. In turn the battery company will build out the charging infrastructure by providing a receptacle for slow charging at every location where there is a parking spot in Israel and Denmark. There is an estimate of 500,000 plug-in locations in Israel alone and the power is to be generated using solar energy. In Denmark the power will be generated with alternative energy, wind, etc. The cars will be designed to travel 100miles on a charge in Israel, that is about 60 miles by 250 mile in area; so to extend the range of those who must travel more that 100 miles or need to install a replacement battery, the solution is to provide five minute robot battery exchange stations.
This model should work for small countries and small commuter areas within the U.S. However, other models will need to be designed to meet all the various needs people have here in the U.S. However, the important thing is something is happening in EVs and I hope the snowball for moving to electric drive cars is starting to roll down hill.
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Mike Z 11:00PM (5/21/2008)
The problem is that everyone hates the cell phone business.
I mean the whole 'give away the razer, sell the blades' is a great business model--but they are not applicable in all business, this is likely one of them.
Your either going to have to lock in customers for a long-term commitment contract, or your business plan is basically DOA as soon as someone comes along with rapid charge batteries.
After all, your going to have to carry a massive amount of batteries in assets on your books, and they are subject to rapid obsolescence.
In other words, Project Better Place basically is about making a massive up-front capital investment in a technology that is subject to rapid obsolescence while generating revenue by renting them out in a market were technology will likely reduce costs in the long term. They are failing to hedge any of their risks, IE transferring the risk of obsolescence or write-down to their customers.
Bottom line: a lot of risk, not a lot of upside. Their core-competency is addressing a technical deficiency by compensating for it via swapping stations instead of addressing the issue head-on. As soon as someone else fixes the core underlying issue (and they are already are) They are out of business.
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Rei 12:13AM (5/22/2008)
Why are a lot of you assuming that the batteries can't take it? It's been more than demonstrated that phosphates, titanates, and spinels can. So what's the deal? If I started selling TVs but renting the power supply, you think a lot of people would be interested? If I started selling computers but rented the CPU? If I started selling houses but renting the windows? It's just a bad business model.
It's also usually a rip, too. Have you seen how much Th!nk plans to charge for their battery rental? Give me a break! Talk about trying to prey on people who don't know how to plan their finances. :P
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Tim 10:38AM (5/22/2008)
I can't remember the last time I swapped out my cell phone battery. I just plug in my cell phone when I'm not carrying it or using it.
When I'm at my desk, it's plugged in. When I'm in my car, it's plugged in, when I'm at home, it's plugged in. I even plug it in when I'm visiting friends if it needs a little juice.
The car battery is MUCH bigger. I don’t see the bid deal of “battery swapping” and I’d wager that the exchange stations would be removed within 10 years of their installation due to non-use.
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