Toyota exec throws wet blanket on PHEV dreams
While Toyota CEO Katsuaki Watanabe was in Tokyo talking up plans to start production of lithium ion batteries at the Panasonic EV Energy joint venture late next year, an American Toyota Exec was dampening expectations for the PHEVs in Washington. Bill Reinert, national manager of the Advanced Technology Group participated in a panel at the Google.org Plug-In Vehicle Conference. Reinert reiterated that while many plug-in proponents emphasize the potentential for 100mpg performance from PHEVs, not everyone will approach that.
Just as with current hybrid vehicles, the fuel efficiency of plug-ins will vary greatly depending on driving conditions. Reinert mentioned that acts like accelerating onto freeways and general real world driving will cut into the theoretical electric only range and the maximum mileage. This will be particularly true with so-called conversion PHEVs like the Prius, the Ford Escape and the upcoming Saturn Vue plug-in hybrid. These electric drive systems in these vehicles don't have sufficient power to propel the vehicle through the full spectrum of real world performance conditions. That means the engines will be starting up relatively frequently. Only when dedicated plug in vehicles with motors designed for full speed drive operation arrive will those kinds of mileage expectations be met more consistently. For more on this subject check out the interview we did with GM's Pete Savagian a few months ago.
[Source: Automotive News - Sub. req'd]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Dave 11:37AM (6/12/2008)
I'm tired of excuses. If Tesla can build a vehicle with 200 + miles of pure electric range at that performance, why the hell can't Toyota who owns half the planet by now?
Reply
steven 11:54AM (6/12/2008)
@1: Does Tesla actually build such a vehicle? Who has yet to test it without the watchful eye of the manufacturer or without mealy provided all the info directly for the manufacturer?
A real road test, drive it under various conditions, charge it back up, perform a standard set of performance tests.
If so, please send Tesla your check for $100K and get in line.
Reply
Steve 12:04PM (6/12/2008)
"If Tesla can build a vehicle..."
heh. Note the singular use of "a vehicle". Nice. I've yet to see a Tesla on the road, much less tens of thousands of them with reports and feedback from people using them as daily drivers. Nor have I seen one marketed at price point I could afford.
Let's practice a little realism when it comes to the development cycle of new technologies. Despite our ability to instantly download, on a whim, music and p0rn that caters to our particular tastes, we have to realize that delivering a warrantied, mass-produced automobile that meets consumer expectations concerning performance, efficiency, safety, reliability, content, and cost is a bit more complicated.
Reply
Sasparilla 1:00PM (6/12/2008)
It is kind of funny to see a Toyota executive making the case as to why the architecture GM went with for the Volt (electric motor powers car 100% of time) is the better choice when wanting to get away from gasoline use in day to day driving. I'm sure it was unintended, but GM could quote that guy in their Volt ad's of the future. ;-)
Reply
Zigster 1:06PM (6/12/2008)
i can't believe people are still buying this Volt stuff
Reply
Rojo 1:14PM (6/12/2008)
Of course it's more complicated than what some people like to believe. However, when you have a fresh start-up building a viable, fully electric vehicle while the Big Dogs (sans GM now) fart around in the land of indecision, it's a bit off-putting.
Quite simply, they have the mass marketing, capital and engineers to smash Tesla into the ground. They have the supply chains and the ability to broker deals with battery manufacturers to get better prices for a product in the less-than-astronomical price-range.
People at Toyota and the other manufacturers obviously lack the foresight in understanding that they needed to 'make the plunge' in order to be effective in five years. They have their Prius cash cow while it will last. After all, if they promise a plug-in now (or god forbid an all-electric) who would want to drop the bank on a new, 'standard' Prius?
Reply
Peter 1:33PM (6/12/2008)
Toyota is not building $100K+ toys for rich celebrities. They are building sub $30k people movers. The Tesla has an 800lb+ $40000 battery.
I applaud Toyota for not engaging in the 100mpg/300mpg* claims (lies). If they can actually improve real world mpg(charge sustaining) by 10 mpg, that would be impressive. It is pretty much impossible that they would have got to 100mpg.
(The * of course meaning you need to charge 50 times per tank to get that mileage they make in these claims)
Charge sustaining MPG and electric only range are the only valid numbers for PHEVs. This other BS is smoke and mirrors.
Reply
Throwback 1:29PM (6/12/2008)
What is the market for $100,000 2 seat electric cars? Perhaps Toyota knows a bit more about building cars than Tesla and ABG commentators. I am know Toyota fan (I actually like to drive) but they do know how to build, market and SELL cars. As for not showing any foresight, their cars sales for the last 10 years suggests otherwise.
Reply
davewin 1:33PM (6/12/2008)
I don't know what all the fuss is about. All the blogs are abuzz with sensational headlines about how Bill Reinert was bringing on the end of the world.
I was in the audience and heard him make the points about not getting carried away. That's all it was. He simply reminded people to be REALISTIC and not to expect too much, as people are apt to do - like when they don't get 60 mpg from their Prius.
The next Toyota Prius is going to be damn good. But anyone expecting panacea can keep waiting - forever.
Reply
fnc 2:46PM (6/12/2008)
I think as soon as you have any way besides the gas tank to put energy into a car, you have to throw a singular "mpg" rating out the window, as it's effectively meaningless as long as you use that second source in any capacity. The only way mpg would mean anything with a plug in hybrid would be if you NEVER plugged it in. I'm thinking the rating body should just bite the bullet and put "gas only" and "charge only" numbers on PHEV's. It probably won't be as pretty as everyone would like, but at least we'll get a simple assessment of what to expect.
Reply
Sam Abuelsamid 3:15PM (6/12/2008)
fnc, the point is that conversion PHEVs which are derived from non-plug-in variants really can't be operated effectively without the engine. The motors simply don't have sufficient power to operate the vehicle on their own in the real world so electric only range is the number that is truly meaningless. Only when you have a dedicated PHEV will that be meaningful. Even if you plug one of these in every time it stops, the engine will still get used.
Reply
Peter 3:35PM (6/12/2008)
@FNC I am essentially saything the same thing.
You indicate the battery only range.
You indicate the engine only mpg.
@Sam:
Blended operations are impossible calculate with any kind of sensible number. They are pulled from where the sun don't shine marketing BS numbers.
PHEV will be able to provide operation as above. Even the standard Prius overseas has an EV button. It may not have the power we would like, but it is certainly capable of EV only operation. The next generation with PHEV capability will have even more powerful motors and even more capability.
BS claims about about infinite/300/100mpg have to stop. Electricity is not gas, it doesn't come in gallons.
Charge range.
Gas MPG.
That is all that can be accurately relayed.
Reply
Dave 4:16PM (6/12/2008)
Is it any surprise that a vehicle designed to operate as a gas-hybrid doesn't operate up to it's full potential when converted to a PHEV by the aftermarket?
Even then, the plug-ins in Google.org's fleet are still posting impressive fuel economy numbers, ranging from 55mpg to 70mpg and further reduces total CO2 emissions from a standard Prius by about 20%.
No doubt that if the vehicle was designed as a PHEV from the start, they would significantly boost the performance capabilities of the generators, controllers and inverters to account for the added power available in a PHEV battery back.
Reply
Serge 2:41PM (6/16/2008)
Re: #11
On paper, serial hybrid power-train infrastructure does look like a better choice for PHEVs than parallel hybrid power-train with beefed-up batteries and upgraded control systems.
As noted by Sasparilla, there is a sense of "unofficial endorsement" of Volt's architectural platform here. Of course, it remains to be seen whether GM's EREV implementation of serial-hybrid PHEV will be successful. Hopefully, Toyota is "prepared," given that they are aware of limitations in their own hybrid platform.
Reply