Volt battery decision soon, and 20 mile EV option possible
Much has been said recently about both the potential cost of the Chevy Volt and who will supply the batteries for the production car. During our recent chat, Bob Lutz he told us that the current mule vehicles are all being tested with packs from only one of the two development suppliers although units from the other supplier are still being tested in the lab. Now, Volt Vehicle Line Executive Tony Posawatz has told reporters that a final production sourcing decision will almost certainly happen by the end of summer. Most of the speculation has been that LG Chem/CPI will get the nod although Continental/A123 Systems remains possible. CPI delivered its first prototype pack to GM more than 2 months before Continental and is already preparing to build lithium batteries in Korea for hybrid applications at other carmakers.
When it comes to the question of cost, we still don't know how much a Volt will cost, although Lutz acknowledged it would be higher than originally hoped. A sticker price closer to $40K than $30K seems likely. As one alternative to help curb costs, Posawatz revealed that sometime after launch, the company could offer a version with an 8kWh battery pack that drops the EV range to only 20 miles from the 40 miles that will normally be available. With rumored battery costs running over $10,000, this could potentially slash the cost by several thousand dollars.
[Source: Reuters]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Dave B 1:25PM (6/14/2008)
20 miles range... there is no point in this vehicle for me. I need at least 40 to even consider an EV. I want 100. Come on MiEV!
GM should be shooting for 60, 80 -plus options. 20 is a joke.
Reply
me2 2:16PM (6/14/2008)
16 KWHr for 40 miles of range is 400 watt hours per mile. That is just about double what the Tesla roadster uses. The Tesla roadster has ~50 KWHr for 200 miles.
$10K for 16KWHr is $625 per KWHr. Battery costs are falling. The commonly quoted price prior to this was $1K per KWHr.
Reply
Stan 2:54PM (6/14/2008)
In other words the engine/generator will be running constantly to supply the current to the batteries. This will probably reduce the mpg to the level of the gen 3 Prius. While the Prius 3 will be much cheaper. Toyota is looking like the wise zen master here. When they get their Lithium chemistry right they will integrate it into Prius 4 or go all electric if the prices of the batteries drop. Lets not leave out Honda which will have an even smaller/cheaper hybrid.
Reply
stevefazek 2:53PM (6/14/2008)
Just how you can order a LS LT or a LTZ for a malibu they should offer the same with a volt,
Let you wallet dictate how much ev range you want.
Pretty much there is no real added cost to offering this selection.
It will be the same as ordering climate control or regular ac, Leather or cloth, Auto or manual in other cars.
if 40 miles of range covers 80% of all drivers
what twill 20 miles a day cover?
I drove 6,000 miles last year half of that was commuting to work the other half was shopping and driving to my family in maine,
Yeah i have a smaller commute than most people because i am not retarded.
I picked a job that paid slightly less than another offer because i didn't have to drive 30 miles to work each way. To me i took my salary, divided by hours of day i spent from home, that included the commute. The extra 30 hours a month i would of been sitting in traffic wasn't worth it to me
Now that gas has gone up 33% in the past year i feel even better
thats another 160 dollars a month i am saving by driving less.
Reply
me2 3:47PM (6/14/2008)
I've been skeptical of the GM Volt initiative all along. The car looks big and heavy with wide tires and we all know that batteries have limited energy storage capacity and they are heavy for what they store.
My guess is that GM is finding it hard to hit the 40 mile promise and keep the cost low.
The thing that GM has working in its favor is volume and the ability to get a really good price on the batteries.
This will be very interesting to watch.
Reply
Wave54 3:35PM (6/14/2008)
* 16 KWHr for 40 miles of range is 400 watt hours per mile. *
The Volt only uses half its battery capacity (8 KWh) as it stands today, operating without the IC engine between 30% and 80% charge to achieve the 40 mile figure.
Reply
me2 4:08PM (6/14/2008)
===========================================================
16 KWHr for 40 miles of range is 400 watt hours per mile. *
The Volt only uses half its battery capacity (8 KWh) as it stands today, operating without the IC engine between 30% and 80% charge to achieve the 40 mile figure.
===========================================================
So a 16KWHr battery pack would have 8 KWHrs os usable energy. 8 KWHrs / 40 miles = 200 watt hours per mile. That is about what the Tesla roadster uses. This car might acheive that at low speeds with lots of regeneration when stopping, but I doubt it. Its way larger than a Tesla roadster.
200 watt hours per mile x 60 MPH = 12 KW = 16HP. Do you think that car will go 60 MPH on only 16 HP ?
Reply
Chris M 6:02PM (7/13/2008)
But the Tesla Roadster doesn't use all of its 53 Kwh battery pack, either, as full charging and full discharging tend to reduce battery life. Typically goes from 80% to 90% maximum State Of Charge down to 40% to 25% minimum SOC, or at most 65% of battery capacity.
Those "watthour per mile" figures are assuming a varied driving cycle, not constant 60 mph. However, the power needs to maintain a constant cruising speeds is significantly less than the power needed for acceleration, and electric motors retain high efficiency over a very wide power band, unlike IC engines that become less efficient at very low or very high power output.
meme 3:58PM (6/14/2008)
It's all part of the reason why an hypercar concept, and especially an all-EV hypercar concept is so attractive with current battery pricing and technology (in an EV, you put less stress on the batteries than you do in a PHEV so you don't have to use draconian measures like installing twice as much battery capacity as you plan to use). While you may spend more for ultralight materials and streamlining, you save more than that in the cost of the battery pack. At the same time, it lowers maintenance, improves performance, and reduces charge time and lets you charge from weaker power sources.
Reply
stevefazek 4:00PM (6/14/2008)
me2 thats the concept. The volt doesn't look much like the concept and wont have tires like the concept either.
The batteries they are using are not that heavy
the volt is using a 50 amp hour pack
around 400lbs thats nothing compared to the weight of lead acid to get that power it would weigh 1200lbs
Reply
meme 4:42PM (6/14/2008)
"The batteries they are using are not that heavy
the volt is using a 50 amp hour pack
around 400lbs thats nothing compared to the weight of lead acid to get that power it would weigh 1200lbs"
Who said anything about lead-acid? The Volt is a car that gets ~50mpg in charge-sustaining mode. That's pretty far from the hypercar concept. The hypercar concept is about extreme streamlining, light weight from things like a composite skin and lightweight alloys, etc. This costs more, but the cost is recouped in reduced battery costs, and you gain all of the associated benefits.
The Aptera is an implementation of the hypercar concept, with the Mk1 pre-production prototype getting 130mpg on gasoline and the lighter Mk0 testing prototype getting 230 mpg in a CVT diesel. Even with a more conventional car design than the Aptera, however, I'm sure you could get at least 100mpg. That means half the battery pack size, double the recharge rate, half the battery maintenance costs, and so on compared to a car with the efficiency of the Volt. But that's only half of the Volt's problem; the other half is that they're only using half of their pack because it's a small-pack PHEV. In a 100-mpg charge-sustaining hypercar concept, you could 4x the range with a pack that weighs the same amount without sacrificing pack longevity since you'd be stressing the pack a lot less.
Reply
TIMMAH! 4:43PM (6/14/2008)
LOL. Leave it to GM to figure out how to get bad mileage on electricity as well... They really need a small and light vehicle initially that uses less of the most expensive component (the battery), until costs can be brought down to where it can be affordable by the majority.
Reply
jake 6:02PM (6/14/2008)
@me2
I don't see the issue, it's using direct drive and the range testing on the Tesla was using the less efficient 2-speed. If worst comes to worst, they can open the taps a little with their battery reserve and get the 40 miles for sure. That's not the problem though, the problem is the batteries are still very expensive. This is just offering another less expensive option for people who don't mind the lesser range.
@meme
A mainstream manufacturer like GM isn't going to be much concerned about building things like hypercars; we are lucky to get some of the smaller cars from Europe here in the US, much less a hypercar. I'll be happy if they finish this car and actually make an effort to sell it, I'm not hoping for much from GM.
Reply
me2 8:06PM (6/14/2008)
"The batteries they are using are not that heavy the volt is using a 50 amp hour pack
around 400lbs thats nothing compared to the weight of lead acid to get that power it would weigh 1200lbs"
Please don't quote battery power as amp hours and not mention the voltage. Ideally battery packs should be rated in KWhrs.
Reply
brian hague 9:00PM (6/14/2008)
Imagine a 40 mile range series hybrid.
Cost: $34,000
Now imagine the same car with half the range:
Cost: $29,000
Brings the payments down a bit, and now more people can afford the car. plus they can technically sell twice the number of cars for the same amount of batteries.
Sounds like a supply side issue...
Reply
stevefazek 9:01PM (6/14/2008)
the chevy volt battery pack should be 300V thats the range for most AC production cars
Reply
Peekoyle 5:18AM (6/15/2008)
I wasnt going to buy one anyway. Full EV (iMiev) for me.
Reply
Laban 4:22AM (6/15/2008)
20 miles would cover close to 50% of the average daily driving:
http://www.a123systems.com/#/applications/phev/pchart6/
Would be more then 50% if you could charge at work, as i can f.e. So a 20 mile options seems like a really good decision to me. And another thing, can someone please explain to me why a PHEV would put a lot more strain on the battery then a HEV ?
AFAIK, the reason for using only 50% of the batterycapacity in the Volt is because the expect to get 10+ years life out of it while keeping the 40 mile range on electricity. Tesla on the other hand expects to get ~5 year with full capacity so i wouldn't compare the Tesla Roadster to the Chevy Volt directly.
Reply
jake 5:04AM (6/15/2008)
@Laban
"And another thing, can someone please explain to me why a PHEV would put a lot more strain on the battery then a HEV ? "
People generally say a PHEV puts more strain on a battery than a BEV, not more than a HEV. I would imagine an HEV puts more strain on a battery than a PHEV (at least in terms of charge cycles) b/c the HEV battery is constantly recharged while the PHEV battery is larger and will likely see less charge cycles over its lifetime.
However there is a point that hybrids today are basically all parallel hybrids and it might not use its battery as much as a PHEV does, b/c it can run directly on the gasoline motor too (this is esp true for hybrids when on the highway). In a PHEV, the person is most likely going to use the EV side more often, even on the highway, so they might end up using the battery more in terms of miles traveled on battery, if not in terms of charge cycles.
Reply
Laban 5:11AM (6/15/2008)
@Jake: Sorry, i meant BEV compared to PHEV, the question was related to:
Meme: "in an EV, you put less stress on the batteries than you do in a PHEV so you don't have to use draconian measures like installing twice as much battery capacity as you plan to use"
Reply