Ghosn: EVs will be profitable from the start, no range extenders
Carlos Ghosn has some harsh-sounding words for alternative vehicles which still use some form of oil for their operation -- think current hybrids and future extended-range electric vehicles. "I want a pure electric car. I don't want a range extender. I don't want another hybrid. It's not going to be zero emissions in certain conditions. It's going to be zero emissions." Sounds like Ghosn is taking a little shot at today's hybrids like the Toyota Prius and even Nissan's own Altima, which uses technology licensed from Toyota. Also under fire from the Nissan chief would be the next generation of green cars like the Chevy Volt. Intriguingly, Ghosn also claims that Nissan's electric vehicles will be profitable right from the get go, unlike many other impending alternatives... again, the Volt.
Another interesting tidbit revealed by Nissan's head honcho is the fact that the EV's his company sells in America will have the ability to travel 100 miles before being depleted, while Europeans will only require half that range.
[Source: The New York Times]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Dave 2:43PM (7/24/2008)
Sure a lot of talk from a company that hasn't put up one prototype. Detroit 2009 better be spectacular.
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Jeremy Korzeniewski 2:51PM (7/24/2008)
Dave, let's hope so!
JK
rob 8:14PM (7/25/2008)
It's not that hard to put an electric drive system in an already inherently efficient car. And they've already announced the battery plants.
I'd expect them to start with something like the Renault Laguna. They put a lightly tweaked one of those in the Challege Bibendum this year and got over 70mpg (diesel, no hybridization).
A Renault Clio would be a good starting point too.
Chris 3:06PM (7/24/2008)
"Another interesting tidbit revealed by Nissan's head honcho is the fact that the EV's his company sells in America will have the ability to travel 100 miles before being depleted, while Europeans will only require half that range."
Is that so? I live in the rural UK and I can say for definite that a 50 mile range will render any electric car not worth the cost because its use will be so limited. Even 100 miles is borderline unless there are public recharging stations that can get the battery back to say 70% in 15 - 20 minutes max.
50 miles will not be any use here. I would like 200 miles. Now that really would replace my oil burner.
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Erik 3:12PM (7/24/2008)
"It's not going to be zero emissions in certain conditions. It's going to be zero emissions."
Whatever dude. Until you can charge it in under 5 minutes at thousands of stations, 100 mile range isn't going to cut it in the US.
Don't get me wrong, it will handle 100% of my daily driving, but at least twice a year I drive 700 miles to my inlaw's house in only 12 hours. I don't want to spend even 30 minutes at each charge (3.5 extra hours on this trip).
That's what range-extenders are all about. Electric-only for most days, but capable of unlimited driving with fuel.
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Rich 3:50PM (7/24/2008)
Well, I'm ready to buy an EV today. 100 mile range will do all but vacations and we'll either rent or have another gas car for those trips.
Tim 4:17PM (7/24/2008)
Maybe twice a year you could rent a car that uses gasoline or bio diesel as fuel?
axiom 4:25PM (7/24/2008)
"Whatever dude. Until you can charge it in under 5 minutes at thousands of stations, 100 mile range isn't going to cut it in the US."
Oop. Someone call the half dozen or so companies coming out with EVs in the next couple years. Random internet poster "Erik" (did you even spell it right?) says it won't cut it. So everyone else in America will have in EV before you do. Everyone else: is this a problem?
"Don't get me wrong, it will handle 100% of my daily driving, but at least twice a year I drive 700 miles to my inlaw's house in only 12 hours. I don't want to spend even 30 minutes at each charge (3.5 extra hours on this trip)."
Well it sounds like if you buy an EV your going to be RENTING a car at least twice a year. Better yet, use all the gas money your saving by charging your electric at night (only a few pennies per KW) to get that rental. Or, better yet, don't even think about buying an EV because you sound like you'd hurt yourself around a high capacity outlet. Your little hypothetical scenario is worthless for this discussion.
EVs are already selling past expectations:
http://green.bizjournals.com/index.php/2008/04/18/electric-car-dealers-exceed-expectations/
RG 4:43PM (7/24/2008)
A serial hybrid like the Volt is an electric car. The "range extender" is what makes it have a usable range for many people where pure battery power alone wouldn't. It's not to say that someday we won't have all electric vehicles that have the range required by many and the recharge rates that we'd find acceptable, but that time isn't here yet. That's the beauty of the serial hybrid. When that day comes, you just pull the generator out. They should actually make the range extender a purchasable option for those that require it and it should be made to install fairly easily such as in a track and cradle system. It doesn't have to be difficult. Unfortunately Ghosn doesn't quite see the whole picture.
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fnc 4:31PM (7/24/2008)
It's cool that he's a booster for the pure EV, but I'd guess he's saying what he's saying more because his company doesn't have any range extended or hybrid offerings in the pipe than for any other reason. And We've seen that even though people might have only needed the ability to haul seven passengers or two something five percent of the time, they were still willing to take on the cost of that big suv ALL the time, so he shouldn't discount peoples' willingness to buy a more flexible car. Just because people might need a range extender for under ten percent of their trips doesn't mean they aren't going to shell out for one.
The biggest annoyance I have with what he said however is, again, this misguided sense that there's only one way forward. Like him, I want to see pure EV's. But unlike him, I want to see hybrids, RE-EV's, biofuel burners, whatever technology lets us go farther on less oil. There's no reason a mix of technologies can't all work just fine, but for different applications.
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Phil 4:42PM (7/24/2008)
I agree, 50 miles is pretty useless.
It would be ok for commuting within a town, but you would have to own another car for weekends and holidays. The nearest town from the town I live in is 30 miles away.
A range extender would be an ideal solution. Most journeys to work / school / shops in the town could be completed on electric only. Weekend and vacations could use a small amount of fuel. A small ICE that can only just provide enough juice for highway cruising would be ideal, it could run on when the vehicle is stationary if necessary.
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Throwback 4:54PM (7/24/2008)
A lot of talk with no product to show for it. The cars will be profitable, but what will they cost? The Tesla roadster is profitable but most folks can't afford it.
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Amtoro 5:15PM (7/24/2008)
GM's argument regarding the Volt is the complexity, but is not the system itself, is the fear of the unknown... what will happen to the ICE if is not used for months at a time... when to ask the customer to change the motor oil... will we get some of that mountain of cash we used to get when bringing the cars for service and changing the consumables (filters, belts, chains, spark plugs, fluids....)
Range extenders are complex because nobody will use them in the same way and the car makers have to back them up with warranty anyway. EV's are simple. period.
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Andy 7:10PM (7/24/2008)
I'm supporting Ghosn.
He's not wrong. He just hasn't spent enough marketing dollar yet to educate the public on the huge difference between wants and needs.
50 miles range really is suitable for many European NEEDS. Of course there are remote places in Europe, but most people live and work in realtively compact cities.
100 miles is probably closer to the mark for the US.
Range anxiety can be largely overcome with charging infrastructure. I expect vested interests in ICE to put up a strong fight and push the flexibility of mobility concern. I saw some autoexec goon on CNBC already talking it up this morning.
Not forgetting:
1) The latent market for people like myself who desperately want to make a big green statement, but are procrastinating.
2) The potentail total cost of ownership adavantage of electrics.
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brody 12:09AM (7/25/2008)
Pure EVs are for smart people who live dense and don’t waste a lot of time and money commuting. 50 and 100 mile range is plenty for those who only drive 10 miles to work.
I would buy a new EV today for $20K even if it had a only a 50 mile range. Yet, 50 miles range is easy because over a decade ago the Toyota RAV 4 was getting near 100 miles. EVs are very simple and once manufacturing is ramped up, they will be very affordable.
The PHEV is more complicated and it will cost a premium and its fuel economy will not be as good because of the extra weight. Yet, the PHEV will be very attractive in the years to come.
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Chris M 3:54AM (7/25/2008)
Don't forget, Renault/Nissan is cooperating with Project Better Place for bublic charging and also battery swap stations. They may be planning to use "quick battery swap" to overcome the "short range long trip slow recharge": problem.
Since battery swapping requires the batteries be leased from the battery swap company, leasing may play a role in keeping costs down and profits up.
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Anton 6:16AM (7/25/2008)
He is 100% right. Why? Nissan will be in a position of offering 100% electric and 100% ICE. Why do you need an hybrid? There is not business case for hybrids (not for the automotive company, not for the customer). The customer will decide the vehicle and the range options depending of his needs and use of the vehicle. May view is that he is suggesting that an European could be happy with a 50 miles range, but he is not saying that European car cannot have double o triple battery packs. (if you pay for it?), just cannot be necessary, the customer will decide, give them the options and they will choose.
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BlackbirdHighway 6:40AM (7/25/2008)
EV's will be a niche market for a while. They will be successful, but won't take over the market right away. There are inconveniences, both real or perceived, in switching to electric. There are also advantages which a few people see, but most people don't
But, as the price of oil climbs higher, and the batteries get better, that will change. I expect it will take 10 years of so until EV's grow to more than 5% of new vehicles sold. Maybe sooner or later depending on oil prices and battery breakthroughs.
Once they achieve critical mass, then they will start to take over the market. I think Elon Musk is probably about right, give then about 30 years to market dominance.
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kert 6:58AM (7/25/2008)
Um, Nissan showed its all electric Mixim prototype a while ago. So who said no prototype ?
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david 2:25PM (7/25/2008)
100 miles will meet most needs. But it will definitely take some time for people to overcome the fear of it not being enough. I think they should try to offer EV's with different range options: 50mi, 100mi, 200mi etc.... Then offer a trial period in the beginning where people can "try" the 100mi option. If they need more they can switch to the 200mi for a price, or downgrade to the 50mi option for less money.
I think a car like this will suit all of my needs except for the occasional road trip. Then I'll either rent or keep my diesel for the long hauls.
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