2009 Honda hybrid system cost to be cut in half!
Looking like a cross between the FCX Clarity fuel cell car and the Toyota Prius, Honda's upcoming dedicated hybrid model should come in at a cost a bit lower than current hybrid models. Part of that lower price is due to the fact that Honda has literally cut the cost of its Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) technology in half when compared to the system currently being used in the Civic Hybrid. Apparently, Honda's engineers have managed to simplify the IMA's complicated mechanicals, making it smaller and easier to package in the process.
All of these detail changes add up to a new hybrid contender with an expected base price of just $18,580. Honda so far has had notably less success with its hybrids than rival Toyota, but much of that can be attributed to the fact that the original Insight could seat only two people and the Civic and Accord hybrid models differed too little from their non-hybrid siblings. All of these issues are being resolved with its newest hybrid, which has us awfully excited about the as-yet unnamed (we vote for Insight) Prius-fighter.
Gallery: Spy Shots: Honda Hybrid-only model
[Source: Nikkei]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Noz 12:44PM (7/29/2008)
This is their chance to shine....to make a nice looking hybrid. I hope they don't screw it up because if it looks like THAT, I ain't buying it.
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Travis Rassat 1:57PM (7/29/2008)
$18,580? Wow, that would be cool...
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Thom 1:04PM (7/29/2008)
Keep the price down like that and have a good Honda interior along with Clarity styling and upwards of 50 mpg and I'll buy one.
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GoodCheer 1:41PM (7/29/2008)
I'm still dissapointed that Honda's IMA prevents the vehicle from moving when the ICE is not spinning (no EV mode).
I contend that they should stick a clutch between the ICE and the electric motor to rectify that problem. Disengage the clutch and the IMA would becomes another variant of series/parallel. I suppose it would be a couple hundred more expensive then.
All the same, I'm very excited to see what they come up with.
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Ignatius 10:07AM (7/30/2008)
Actually, the Honda Civic Hybrid had an EV mode that allowed the engine to shut down all four cylinders to run mainly on the electric engine.
However, this is at extremely low speeds...
jeffzekas 2:07PM (7/29/2008)
The name I vote for: Millennium Falcon!
Second choice: Bladerunner!
Third Choice: Godzilla!
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Matthew 2:46PM (7/29/2008)
More Honda Garbage. I still do not understand why this car is allowed to be called a Hybrid. Honda can claim all they want, but no car magazine has ever been able to run on electric only even on the latest model. As soon as your foot comes off the brake pedal, the silly 1.3L fires up. My 2002 Prius can accelerate with traffic on electic any time, and with 259 ft.lbs of torque, it motors on the highway for passing. Honda's IMA in the civic puts out a middling 44 ft.lbs between 0-400 rpm?
Plain and simple IMA sucks. The only reason the Civic Hybrid gets anywhere near the Prius is because of engine size and significantly slower performance. The Civic is slow, has poor battery range, and the hybrid warranty coverage that Honda offers nowhere matches Toyota, Nissan, Ford (same systems) and GM.
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PeterG 3:15PM (7/29/2008)
Simplified the complicated mechanicals??? IMA has no complicated mechanicals. It is one thin electric motor sandwiched between the the gas engine and the transmission. That is just about the only mechanical component.
This is just about the simplest imaginable hybrid. How could they make it simpler. Leave out the electric motor and pretend it's a hybrid?
There is one thing I like about the Honda system. it works with manual transmissions. If they make a decent manual transmission hybrid hatch, I might consider it.
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Chris M 3:45PM (7/29/2008)
The Honda Integrated Motor Assist still requires a clutch and a standard mechanical transmission or a "cone & belt" CV transmission to work with the IC engine and single motor/generator.
The Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive replaces the clutch and standard transmission with 2 motor/generators and a simple planetary gear, which produces an electric CV hybrid drive that can run on electricity only or on IC engine and electricity. The Toyota HSD (and similar hybrids from Ford and Nissan) actually have fewer moving parts in their drivetrains, as they do not need a standard transmission or clutch!
PeterG 4:24PM (7/29/2008)
Chris, I know the Toyota system replaces the transmission, HSG is ingenious, but that doesn't answer my quesiton. What mechanical complexity was reduced with the Honda system?
Presumable it is still one single electric motor sandwiched between the engine/tranny as was the older one.
Ian Kennedy 3:13PM (7/29/2008)
"Civic and Accord hybrid models differed too little from their non-hybrid siblings"
I get that with the Accord, it offered little over the V6 model. But the Civic (we own one) gets 47mpg mixed. That's the difference.
I also like that it doesn't look like a moon buggy. However, it would seem that Toyota has set the marketplace tone and that tone is: hybrids need to look like something from The Jetsons.
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M1EK 8:36PM (7/29/2008)
NO, NO, NO. The looks of the Prius have virtually nothing to do with it - it's the fact that the Prius was the size of the Accord Hybrid for passengers, got better mileage than the Civic Hybrid, and still had as fold-down trunk (beating both for cargo utility).
Ian Kennedy 3:18PM (7/29/2008)
Matthew, thank you for enforcing the stereotype that Prius owners are full of themselves.
Where was Toytoa when then Insight come out?
I would agree that the Prisu has a superior hybrid powertrain. it is alos more expensive for little gain over the IMA solution. And, as we all know from Top Gear, the Prius isn't exactly a speed demon.
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Chris M 3:55PM (7/29/2008)
Toyota started selling the first Prius version in Japan in 1997, before Honda introduced the Insight hybrid. Honda did start selling the Insight in the US a year before Toyota started selling their upgraded Prius in the US and elsewhere.
So what was Toyota doing when the Insight came out? Upgrading the Prius with more power and better performance for the US market. Toyota had their 3rd Prius version ready by 2004, the version that won all the awards.
Jeff 3:57PM (7/29/2008)
Matthew...
The word hybrid means there are multiple forms of power for propulsion. For example...I raise a sail on a paddleboat. I can compare this example to your Prius. What you are claiming is you can paddle your wheels whenever you want or you can simply rely on the wind (that is if you have no holes in your sail and have a good tailwind). The Civic Hybrid is fundamentally different. Using the same example; every time a Civic owner paddles their boat...the wind always picks up to help them along. In fact the wind actually picks up the most the harder one tries to paddle. And it's a good thing. As you say, the reason the my skinny legs (IMA) can get by is only because there is always that tailwind.
The numbers you are throwing out are the cumbustion engine only. When you accelerate (you know the moment you get the worst fuel efficiency) is the time when the battery kicks in the most, so there are no issues with accelerating in traffic.
Its entertaining to hear your claim that your Prius can get you to the next traffic light and traffic jam faster than in the Civic. Good for you.
I assume you bought the vehicle for a few reasons maybe good gas mileage or reduced emissions. The Civic is just behind in fuel efficiency though has the best current rating for carbon emissions. That is something Honda can be proud of. Oh...and I don't think an 8 year warranty on the battery is that bad...do you? The warranty on the battery is significantly better than the rest of the car. WOW! I think the claims that the Prius averaged 75+ miles per gallon when it doesn't average 50 was a pretty hefty claim to get shot down too...don't you think. That means the old fuel efficiency was over 50% higher than it actually was.
Oops.
Just remember that because the Civic hybrid technology works different, runs on a smaller engine, produces less emissions, uses a more efficient battery, and doesn't cause you to go into random comment rooms for no other reason than to be a hater; that doesn't mean it is a horrible vehicle. Your Prius is an awesome car and I am sure that the 09 model wil live up to it's hype. Toyota never lets its customers down...except for the time it continued the claim that it's most fuel efficient vehicle actully got 50% better mpg than it claimed. That is like meeting a girl and then telling her I am a teacher and make over $75,000 per year, when I only make $48,000. Being good with kids and giving back to the community will not make up for it.. (Sorry...I can't let that go)
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LaughingMan 10:31AM (7/30/2008)
Jeff. You started out reasonable, but your bashing of the Prius is terribly biased.
You keep saying that somehow Toyota let its customers down by claiming 50% higher fuel efficiency.
Number 1 : It wasn't up to Toyota to advertise 60/51 as their fuel economy. It was the EPA rating based on the EPA test cycle at the time. It's not legal to post ANY OTHER NUMBER.
Don't blame Toyota because the EPA rating was flawed. In 2008, when the test itself was changed, it wasn't Toyota fessing up to some evil scheme to trick Prius buyers... it was the US government changing the way they ran a test for regulation purposes!
Number 2 : The EPA rating, either new or old, doesn't represent real world mileage at all. This summer, my Prius has been averaging 3 tanks well over 55 MPG... the vast majority of which have been highway miles!
My best tank so far has been 540 miles, putting in 9.5G. That's 56.7 MPG. 80% highway in that case, with the A/C on.
My car definitely averages over 50 MPG. When driven locally, I can average well over 60 MPG too... so it's not overblown to claim that the Prius is capable of more than EPA.
The EPA rating is useful for comparison purposes, but this summer of driving has shown me that it is not an upper limit for possible mileage on a car like the Prius. The EPA rating doesn't begin to describe the full potential of a car like the Prius.
Gordio 4:07PM (7/29/2008)
Ian:
I dont' think the article was referring to mileage when saying differing from the gas counterparts. It also refers to the exterior appearance. Some people want bragging rights, and a civic hybrid is not as noticeable as prius since the civic h looks almost like the gasoline version.
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Matthew 4:27PM (7/29/2008)
IMA is a totally unsophisticated system compared to Toyota, Ford, Nissan and GM/Chrsyler systems. Question, if Honda's IMA is so great, then why is Honda the only automaker to back out of hybrid models? They must know their claims of fuel efficiency are out of wack with reality. Further, Toyota never claimed 75 mpg on anything. Toyota built the Prius to get twice the fuel economy of the Corolla at the time. The original Prius was a superior realization of that original idea than the current model is. With my Prius, I can typically get about 49 mpg on the highway with over 60 mpg in the city. Also unlike the IMA, any other Hybrid will shut off the gas engine when you have the A/C running when the car is stopped (except GM's mild hybrid, which also sucks mind you). My 2002 Prius always does. Honda's IMA does not. My friends 2006 Civic Hybrid parked beside my Toyota Prius for 10 minutes did not once shut off. My Prius started up only once for about 30 seconds.
Lastly, in terms of maintenance, Honda Hybrid's are rediculous. The CVT's use a very special kind of fluid, if you dare use any other, the transmission will "hand grenade" on you, so a few owners have found. Any other automaker's hybrid will accept ATF+4 without issue. Also, routine servicing is much more frequent on all Honda hyrbids as reported by many owners than other maker's hybrids.
Don't get me wrong though, I do appreciate any effort to save environment. But Honda's claims on their webpage that they were the first automaker to introduce a mass produced hybrid in 1999. Its similar to the Honda Pilot commercial that says that its the most fuel efficient 8 passenger SUV, well great considering the only other 8 passenger SUV is a Chevrolet Suburban with a 6.0L V8. I just really hope that people do not fall for that kind of trick marketing. Its not fair to misguide and misinform people. Honda is certainly not alone, but in my experience, they are among the worst.
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Matthew 4:35PM (7/29/2008)
BTW I appreciate all of your criticisms as they are all fair, and I thoroughly enjoy this website because of the kind of discussion that takes place. I have not doubt automakers watch this site like hawks for information on what the market wants.
However, Chris your comments are not correct at all. Toyota was building the NWH10 version Prius since 1997. By mid 2000 when Honda introduced the first Honda Insight, Toyota had sold over 35,000 of them in Japan alone. They also started selling in Europe in 1998 as well in smaller units. For North America Toyota released the NWH11 Prius in 2000 as a 2000, with upgraded powertrain, lighter and more powerful battery and motor and refinements to computers as well as a upgraded look. So that is where Toyota was in the history books.
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PeterG 5:00PM (7/29/2008)
Priceless thread.
Hybrid owners hating on other hybrid owners. Shouldn't you guys unite and hate on Diesels? :D
Personally I won't buy an auto/CVT etc, so most hybrids are out for me, but if I were to buy one without a stick, it would be the Toyota system as the HSG is a cool piece of engineering and gets better results.
But Honda has a chance to get my business with a manual transmission like they had on the Insight. Just deliver the MPG, because for normal people that is the most important hybrid trait. That is why the Accord hybrid failed, and why they Camry hybrid is doing quite well.
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