VIDEO: GMnext takes on diesel myths
They say that an image tells more than a thousand words. The same can be said about this GMNext video, which you can find after the jump, which has GM's diesel guru Gary Arvan answering, some common questions from some Los Angeles passers-by, The diesel questions include queries such as why diesels are more popular in Europe than in the U. S., why diesel is more expensive at the pump, what happens if you use the wrong fuel at the pump and how it affects your health from the exhaust pump. [Source: GMNext]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
ryan 9:08PM (8/11/2008)
I would like to see an in-depth look at WHY these policies were enacted in Europe, and why America (government) has the exact OPPOSITE view on them.
Looking at it from my personal view of things, gas has always been more expensive over here in Japan, when compared to diesel. Kerosene is even cheaper than diesel still. The prices are tax-controlled by the government here.
Why is it that only America is backwards on this issue? (waiting for counter-example to prove that other countries set diesel at a higher price than gasoline)
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sean 10:30PM (8/11/2008)
the reason diesel is generally more expensive in the US is that it is taxed more than gasoline. the general idea is that because typically heavy trucks do the most damage to the roads and they are the primary consumers of diesel fuel they should carry the more of the burden of repairing the roads. also, i have heard that the US actually exports some of its diesel fuel to other countries, which drives the cost here.
why not the LS2LS7? 12:53AM (8/12/2008)
Diesel is taxed the same as gas. And since Diesel has more energy, it's actually a better deal.
http://www.boe.ca.gov/sptaxprog/spftdrates.htm
Diesel costs more because Diesel costs more. Partly because it takes more hydrocarbon to make a gallon of it.
stevefazek 8:11AM (8/12/2008)
Not really diesel costs more for a few reasons. It is Taxed slightly higer at the federal level and the state level.
The price has climbed in the past 2 years because of a new federal law. This law mandates that diesel go from 500PPM sulfur to 15PPM
Generally now higher quality oil must be used, and enzymes to break down the sulfur .
World demand has gone up and now the US is a net exporter of diesel fuel. national commerce WAS going up until this year which ment more trucks on teh road.
The reasons why the cars cost more is more metals are required in the engine to make them stronger. More electronics Stronger parts IE forged compared to cast.
More rare metals in the filters and traps.
Diesel gets more MPG because of more BTU per gallon.
It also pollutes more per gallon because of this,
In my area diesels made sense up until around 12-15 months ago when the price per BTU advantage diesel had went away.
brn 10:51AM (8/12/2008)
Ryan, it's not just an American issue. Diesel is now more expensive than gas in the UK.
http://www.petrolprices.com/
Also in Canada
http://www.gasbuddy.com/
s10 9:11PM (8/11/2008)
Often on these forums I see mpg figures for euro spec diesels compared to gas or hybrid mpg in the US. What many people forget is that making a Diesel clean enough for the US market, you loose some mpg over the non Cat versions.. making Diesel less attractive.
Also with fuel prices going up, people drive less, which makes the recoup of the more expensive Diesel car longer.
That's one of the reasons the amount of Diesel cars sold in Europe has dropped after many years of increasing sales.
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why not the LS2LS7? 12:55AM (8/12/2008)
In the UK, the Diesel taxes were changed to be more similar to gas taxes, including registration fees (MOT). This made the running costs of Diesel a lot higher and is another reason the percentage of Diesel cars has leveled off or dropped.
Paul Sallmen 12:36AM (8/12/2008)
Diesel is certainly an option in the quest for alternative technologies. Although I tend to agree with s10 who comments that fuel economy of diesels decrease to make them emission compliant for the US. Frankly, I think whoever can come up with a viable battery and sell a 200+ km range electric sedan for $20 000 will make ICE (internal combustion engine) cars obsolete!
Think about it: with electric, no more timing belts, no water pumps, no radiator to leak, no pollution equipment required (ie no expensive catalytic converters, mufflers or exhaust, no EGR valves, no oxygen sensors, no smog canisters or particle filters). Not to mention no pistons, no cylinders, no camshafts, no oil to leak, no valves, no head gaskets to leak. Need I go on?
Unfortunately ICE cars have been mainly kept around, so that the Exxons of the world can justify their existence. Not to mention the car manufacturers themselves sell a lot more parts with ICE cars as they have so many more moving parts!
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philmcneal 1:47AM (8/12/2008)
[quote]Think about it: with electric, no more timing belts, no water pumps, no radiator to leak, no pollution equipment required (ie no expensive catalytic converters, mufflers or exhaust, no EGR valves, no oxygen sensors, no smog canisters or particle filters). Not to mention no pistons, no cylinders, no camshafts, no oil to leak, no valves, no head gaskets to leak. Need I go on?[/quote]
sounds like my role as a upcoming automotive service technician is toast, unless those high voltage wires can bring the customers coming back in fear of zapping themselves!!
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stevefazek 8:40AM (8/12/2008)
EVs will still need regular suspension replacement. Brake jobs new tires tire rotation balancing. Alignments The bearings brushes "if they have brushes" All fail they will need to be replaced.
Also many EVs have liquid cooled motors, This will still need coolant flushes, the radiators will eventually leak.
The power steering units will wear out. Windows will still fall out of track. The shunts and various relays will eventually wear out
Less maintenance yes
NO maintenance? Hell no Theres still gonna be tons of ICE cars on the road for the next 20-30 years just slowly less and less and less.
Frederik 4:46AM (8/12/2008)
In terms of CO2 and mileage, a diesel is better.
In terms of fine particals exhaust, a diesel is a nightmare. These particals can be filtered but while those filters are an extra option, nobody wants to pay extra for it and the airquality is getting worse here in Europe.
So please don't be fooled by a car manufacturor who killed the EV, sels the Hummer brand and is on the edge of bankrupt.
Frederik, from Belgium
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Whopper 8:42AM (8/12/2008)
"Unfortunately ICE cars have been mainly kept around, so that the Exxons of the world can justify their existence. Not to mention the car manufacturers themselves sell a lot more parts with ICE cars as they have so many more moving parts!"
Not true! Gasoline is easily transported and dispensed and contains far more energy per pound than any battery available today or in the forseeable future. A tank full in my 20 mpg Silverado will take me 400 miles and weighs 120 lbs.
A reduction in moving parts makes the vehicle easier and cheaper to assemble which benefits the manufacturer. And have no fear, people will continue to run into things and have to replace fenders etc.
philmcneal, don't worry. A tech has to address a host of issues outside of the powerplant. The electric motor has to get power to the ground via some transmission/differential and there will always be suspension, brakes etc.
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Dawn 11:59AM (8/12/2008)
Frederik is right about diesels being better in terms of CO2 emissions, but he's wrong about PM. New clean diesel vehicles being introduced in the US this fall meet CA's stricter emissions standards and have the same PM and NOx emissions as their gasoline counterparts. Filters which reduce these emissions are standard on cars sold in the U.S. And although diesel vehicles do cost more than their gasoline alternatives, the new diesels will qualify for tax credits ($1300 just announced for VW's jetta).
As for the earlier comments on diesel fuel - the federal tax on diesel is 6 cents higher than on gasoline. Each state has its own tax rate, however a majority of states tax diesel higher than gasoline.
Finally, although diesel fuel does cost more than gasoline, the fact that diesel's are 20-40% more fuel efficient means that even if diesel is $1 more expensive than gasoline - the diesel can cost less to operate (actual breakeven point depends on efficiency level of the diesel and is usually even higher than $1).
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Noz 1:08PM (8/12/2008)
Let me guess how the video starts:
HERE AT HALLIBURTON....
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slk23 1:31PM (8/12/2008)
I drove a Fiat Grande Punto diesel in Italy last fall and I loved it. Mixed driving resulted in 45 mpg.
The GM video is pretty poor. Idiotic questions from the interviewer and a camera person that must have been falling down drunk. Or are those camera movements and tilted horizon supposed to add interest and energy to the video? Whatever....
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MikeW 6:48PM (8/12/2008)
Damn camera persion
Stop moving about.
It is not edgy, it is distracting.
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Guy Incognito 12:36PM (8/15/2008)
When learning how to shoot film/video, the first thing you learn is how to hold the camera steady.
Did the camera man need to take a leak or something?
Towards the end it was making me dizzy.
Carleton Bucknam 4:29PM (8/13/2008)
To: SEAN, WHY NOT THE LS2LS7, STEVE FAZEK, and DAWN. Your comments were pretty much right on. I have been a diesel mechanic for about 40 years (retired now) and have dealt with a large number of different types of diesel engines and fuel systems. The new "common rail" high-pressure injection system (currently in use in Europe) seems to offer the most efficient, cost effective and cleanest method of managing an engine's fuel useage.
Traditionally and historically, here in the U.S. diesel used to be 15% to 20% cheaper than regular grade gasoline, UNTILL the laws were passed to limit sulphur content. Diesel is a byproduct from the gasoline cracking process. It comes off the tower first. The problem is twofold. First, STEVEFAZEK is right, you have to start out with "sweet crude". Second, the cracking process for "ultra-low sulphur diesel" is very much more involved than before. That is why it costs so much more than gasoline now.
Another thing to consider. EPA "forces" us to buy "sweet crude" from the near east by not allowing us to refine our own domestic crude because of it's high sulphur content.
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Mary Ann Brown 2:51PM (8/18/2008)
As a GM employee, I can tell you that we announced in mid-2007 that we are going to be offering a new 4.5L V8 diesel engine for fullsize pickup trucks in the 4th quarter of 2009. The engine fuel efficiency improves by 25 percent when compared with gasoline engines. Environmental benefits of the new engine include a 13-percent reduction in CO2 versus gasoline engines, and at least a 90-percent reduction in particulates and NOx when compared to diesel vehicles today. Even though truck sales are down, there are still several segments of the population that require them and this engine will provide the performance attributes required by customers in the areas of towing and hauling loads.
One of the reasons we don't have as many diesels in the U.S. as in Europe is due to the stringent emissions laws we have in this country. This new engine will meet the emission standards in all 50 states, making it the cleanest diesel ever produced.
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