Toyota unhappy with current PHEV legislation
Now is the time that automakers can get in touch with the Feds and let them know what they have in store for the U.S. market. General Motors has taken the unusual approach of being extremely transparent with the development of its Volt, which is either an extended-range electric-vehicle or a PHEV, depending on your point of view. As far as current, though not yet concrete, legislation is concerned, the Volt would be the only vehicle produced by a major manufacturer with enough battery capacity to qualify for certain tax credits that the government is considering applying towards future automotive purchases. Not so fast, says Toyota. The Japanese company has yet to reveal any real plans to launch a production PHEV intended for regular retail consumption, but they have been testing the waters with trials for a good long time. According to Toyota, any regulations that stipulated a battery with at least 6kW/hr - which currently would include only the Volt - would be too restrictive. So, Toyota... what'cha got up your sleeve? In any case, this legislation is still very much in its infancy, and we'd be shocked if it didn't see many revisions before going into law.[Source: Automotive News - sub. req'd]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
John Rowell 12:13PM (9/17/2008)
Oh come on Toyota! 6 kwh is too restrictive? For a PHEV, 6 kwh is a very small amount of energy.
Reply
Pierpaolo 12:20PM (9/17/2008)
Current generation hybrids are costly useless crap. Latest generation diesels (which make up the bulk of today's European market) are providing _since_many_years _ the same mileage at a fraction of the cost (and that's why they are enojoying almost zero success over here).
Extended-range electric-vehicles like the Volt are essentially electric-vehicles for most of the people's daily needs (Europeans drive less kms per day than Americans, Canadians and, I believe, all of the rest of the developed world barring Japan). So given the cost and the technical limitations of batteries, today, the Volt and car like the Volt are the ONLY intelligent answer and the first practical step to greatly reduce are dependence from oil and from the most hostile and dangerous geopolitical areas of the world.
Cars like the Prius should be tossed away and replaced by cars like the diesels sold in Europe AND cars like the diesels sold in Europe should be replaced as soon as possible by cars like the Volt and, eventually (when the technology and the prices allow for it), by full fledged electric-vehicles.
Reply
tankd0g 11:55PM (9/17/2008)
Direct injected gasoline or better yet ethanal for me thanks. You can have your double digit 0-60 times.
meme 12:27PM (9/17/2008)
For a 250Wh/mi vehicle, 6kWh is 24 miles. Of course, since Toyota's plug-in Prius design is a parallel, it's actually more like 40-50 miles with half of that coming from gasoline. The Volt eliminates 100% of gasoline for 80% of your travelled miles, while the Prius eliminates 50% of gasoline for 80% of your travelled miles. Both get ~50mpg after that. I'm sorry, but I think the Volt *should* get better incentives than the plug-in Prius, as it's doing more to help the environment.
Reply
Sean 2:26PM (9/17/2008)
Amen to that!
tankd0g 11:50PM (9/17/2008)
OMG I can't believe people are still spouting this CRAP. The VOLT will not get 50 mpg on the gas engine after the battery is depleted. this is a nearly full size car that's going to be lugging itself around with a 1.4L engine that also has to charge a giant battery on top over overcoming the losses associated with generating electricity from a stator. I think GM is banking on the fact that half the country failed highschool physics. The FACT is, all else being equal, your ROI, even with a rebate on the Volt, is going to be in the decade range if you only drive 40 miles a day, it's going to be even further out if you drive more than that. In fact there is a point of diminishing returns where the Prius would actually cost you less in gasoline than the volt and still cost $15k less. There are going to be some seriously disappointed people when this thing goes on sale, Bob promised you the moon on this one.
meme 12:29PM (9/17/2008)
And this, of course, assumes that the Prius actually *were* to use a 6kWh pack and were to use all of the capacity therein (rather than just 50% or so)
Reply
Marz 1:47PM (9/17/2008)
Pierpaolo, I've had Rabbit & Jetta diesels, averaged between 45-50 mpg, Jetta was better for some reason. I've had my Prius 2 yrs. average 64mpg. So about 28% better mileage & 20% lower fuel cost, at about the same price as a Jetta TDI ! Yeah, hybrids are costly useless crap.
Reply
Pierpaolo 5:17PM (9/17/2008)
Hi, I have never seen any "real life test" getting 64 MPG in real world use out of a Prius! On the contrary, it seems to get worse mileage than the declared figures...
I am from Italy and in mixed city/highway use I am getting 48,5 _real_ miles per gallon out of my Opel Corsa CDTI Speedtronic which cost me € 14,500 (with A/C, ABS, 4 air bags, traction control, Electronic Stability Control, power steering, power windows, powered and heatable mirrors, cd mp3 -I have replaced it with a 7" LCD touch screen multi-player though LOL-, antitheft alarm, centralized door lock with radio remote, alloy wheels, metallized paint and automatic transmission) compared to € 26,000 for the Prius.
Advertised fuel comsumption (official Toyota data) for the Prius is 4.3 l/100 km (ie 23.2 km/l) and real fuel consumption is (in all of the real life tests from the best autoreviewers here) around 20 km/l which is just marginally better than the 19 km/l I get from my car.
For your reference:
23.2 km/l = 54.6 MPG (official Toyota data)
20 km/l = 47 MPG (Prius real world fuel consumption)
19 km/l = 44.7 MPG (Corsa real world fuel consumption)
5% better mileage with a € 11,500 ($ 16,500) premium... that's what I call "costly useless crap", Marz.
If you are from the US you have bought one of the most fuel efficient cars available to you (I would as well), but judging the Prius and all of the rest of today's hybrids from the market where they confront "REAL", CHEAPER and PROVEN technology, they suck.
The Volt (with a diesel ICE instead of a gasoline one) is the way to go!
Pierpaolo 5:21PM (9/17/2008)
Oops, I meant to write that in mixed city/highway I get 44.7 mpg.
48.5 is what I get on the highway.
David 3:05PM (9/17/2008)
"qualify for certain tax credits that the government is considering applying towards future automotive purchases"
And what does this exactly mean??
Reply
meme 4:41PM (9/17/2008)
The Dems in congress have been trying to get an EV/PHEV purchase tax credit for the past several years now; the amount has ranged from $5 to 7k. That means if you buy one, you can directly subtract that dollar amount from your taxes owed (unlike a deduction, where you subtract from how much you earned). It effectively means that an Aptera costs you $20k instead of $27k and a Volt costs you $23k to $33k instead of $30k-40k. The Republicans have been successfully blocking it so far. It just passed the House as part of a measure that also included some offshore drilling to earn some Republican support. However, the amount of drilling is limited, so Bush has promised a veto and it's questionable whether it'll get through the Senate anyways.
Wildgoosechase 3:30PM (9/17/2008)
So what. If Toyota wants the tax credit, build a better PHEV.
'nuff said.
Reply
tankd0g 11:51PM (9/17/2008)
Toyota already had their tax credit, back when no one wanted a Prius because gas was cheap. Why the **** is the government offering one now when there's a waiting list for hybrids? GM lobbyists, that's why. Disgusting.
Eletruk 5:23PM (9/17/2008)
Waaaa
I'm Toyota
Waaaa
I can't commit on a PHEV
Waaaa
I want government subisdies anyways
Waaaa
10 miles EV should be enough
Afraid of some competition finally Toyota?
Reply
tankd0g 11:51PM (9/17/2008)
Waaaaaa
I'm GM
Waaaaaa
I pissed away 100 billion dollars and now my game changing car needs a tax payer funded hand out in order to be the least bit competitive because we couldn't sell a bottle of water in the Sahara.
Waaaa, also please give us 25 billion extra so we have something to piss away later on.
stevefazek 6:40PM (9/17/2008)
cry me a river toyota you have a 4.65 amp hour battery pack at 280 V.
Thats DIRT CHEAP to produce.
their cost now for the prius battery pack is around 600-700 bucks
Reply
tankd0g 11:51PM (9/17/2008)
Too bad GM didn't just load 3 of those up then huh? The Volt would be $25k.
stevefazek 12:51AM (9/18/2008)
the volt should consume around 170-220 watts per mile depending on the engine config. Thats pretty average for a high voltage AC system.
Remember the volt has as 16KW battery pack but your only using 50% of that to achieve a long life. Since they still need a buffer when its running on gas. When your flooring it the motor most likely draws more power then the generator produces.
So the volt could run 80+ miles if its 100%-0% but everyone knows thats not a good way to treat a battery.
I priced out how much it would cost me to build a 16KWh LiFePo4 battery pack. its 8500 but with a BMS and bus bars its closer to 9 grand. And ironically its the same size as the volts battery pack in volume. the Plug in i want to build i would only use a 8kw battery pack and since i only need 10 miles a day. that was just under 4500 bucks.
Same its just a bit too big to fit in most spare tire wells. I could fit a 5KWh pack in a spare tirewell.
Reply
Pierpaolo 4:10AM (9/18/2008)
@ tankd0g "Direct injected gasoline or better yet ethanal for me thanks. You can have your double digit 0-60 times."
And this just shows how far back in the past you are stuck...
Latest generation diesels are actually BETTER PERFORMING than gasoline engines and way more pleasurable to drive since they have a much higher torque!
In this age of strict highway code, harsh punishments and very hard enforcement (even here in Italy, so the party is really over :o) ) I care much more for fuel consumption performance than for accelleration performance but the thing is, with the latest generation diesels (and since MANY years already), I can have them both... You can keep your slow, gas guzzling gasoline engines.
Reply