Who's being the moron here? The first volt off the line will cost somewhere around 10 million dollars.

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Tankdog, do you really think GM will apply the full development cost to just the first vehicle off the line? Not likely, they've never done that on any other vehicle. That cost is always spread over the entire production run, usually over several years.

But that half million dollar Clarity is just counting the cost of building the car, with most of that cost for the fuel cell and H2 storage - it doesn't account for ANY of the development cost! If that development cost was applied by your screwy accounting, that first car would be more than 11 million.

Oh, by the way, that Clarity also has LiIon batteries, they are needed to run the car until the fuel cell gets going, store regenerative braking energy, and provide extra power for acceleration.

Hmm, somehow Honda doesn't think LiIon is ready for a plug-in, but they are ready for their fuel cell car? Curious, that.

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tankd0g: you.
If Honda charged all the development cost in their first Clarity, that would be a few hundred million dollars. Chris is absolutely right. And whatever you're driving now would be also a few hundred million dollars, if not a billion or more.

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Excellent point.

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Oh yes, I's going to be real bitchin when the li-ion batteries in the Volt start going the way of your cell phone and like 10% of the capacity per year. Oh and a cold day comes along, well, you'll be buying gas. If they had gone with Nicads they would have better cold weather performance, last longer AND be cheaper. Guess who's sticking with nicads.

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Tankdog, what applies to a cell phone doesn't necessarily apply to a car. For cell phones and laptops, maximum run time with minimum weight is the goal, not battery lifespan, so it gets fully charged, and often gets totally discharged. That shortens battery life. The cost of replacement batteries isn't excessive.

But for EV and hybrids, replacement batteries are expensive, so long battery life becomes much more important and the battery is more carefully managed. In the Volt, the battery isn't charged over 85% of maximum charge, the "range extender" kicks in at 35%, and it doesn't allow the charge to drop below 20%. The result is a dramatic improvement in battery life. Toyota has used a similar battery management for their NiMH hybrid batteries, resulting in over 10 years of useful life.

Oh, and NiCads are obsolete. NiMH last longer, have 3x better energy density, and are cheaper. And LiIon is threatening to make NiMH obsolete in the same way.

What batteries is Honda using in their Clarity fuel cell prototype? LiIon, of course.

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tankd0g:
In order to extend the life of the batteries in the Volt, they will never be discharged below about 50% capacity nor charged beyond about 85%. This will extend the battery life many many times.

You're right NiCds keep more capacity in the cold, but NiCds have such low density they aren't really that useful anymore. What's the point in retaining 80% of your capacity when it was only 40% as much in the first place? Also, NiCds are all but illegal in Europe due to Cadmium being a heavy metal.

NiMHs are the only other viable alternative, but as a Prius owner will tell you, they lose capacity in the cold too. And NiMHs are over twice the weight of LIons for a given capacity.

What makes you say such things? Yes, the Volt isn't for everyone, and as you point out, it doesn't make financial sense for a large number of people. But why do you have to go beyond that and imply that just because you can point out the financial issues, you also can go ahead and trump industry knowledge on technical issues?

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Tankdog are you retarded?

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tankd0g, I think you should do a bit more research on the Volt's Li-Ion battery manufacturing technology before 'bitching' about the cell phone battery.

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Yes, and they've admitted that it will take at least a decade of research before they can bring the cost down to affordable levels and actually start production.

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The FCX Clarity does use LiIon batteries to store regenerative braking power, supply extra power for acceleration, and run the car until the fuel cell can start working.

There are several major breakthroughs needed in both fuel cells and in H2 storage to bring the cost of H2 FC vehicles down to merely expensive levels, and nothing obvious has shown up in 40 years of research. On the other hand, LiIon automotive batteries are expensive but affordable now, and several potential breakthroughs have already been announced that could drop the price dramatically in the near future.

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Good thing you can just put hydrogen right into an existing ICE them isn't it? Can you do that with li-ion?

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Yes, tankdog, an internal combustion engine can run on hydrogen, but the power is greatly reduced as it is difficult to pack enough bulky H2 into the cylinder, and the range is hardly usable and the H2 fuel cost is double that of gasoline.

Example: Quantum Technology converted a Prius to run on H2 for $80,000, and in spite of hybrid efficiency a tank of H2 compressed to 10,000 psi would only last 80 miles. The conversion costs more than 3x the cost of the car!

So lets see, a Honda H2 Hybrid Civic with an 80 mile range that costs $100,000 - how well do you think that would sell?

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Tankdog
"Good thing you can just put hydrogen right into an existing ICE them isn't it? Can you do that with li-ion?"

No, you use existing Electric Motor technology, that has been around as long as the car. Is that really your argument?

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