Honda intentionally limiting sales of its Civic GX?
We're suckers for a good conspiracy theory, and we've stumbled upon one involving getting our nations off imported oil. Perfect! After reading through it, though, we're a little less enthusiastic. The whole thing centers around the Honda Civic GX, which is powered by natural gas as opposed to liquid petroleum. Sure, it's still coming from the ground, but it burns cleaner in an internal combustion engine and there is lots of it around these parts. So, is the Civic GX the perfect car to wean ourselves on? Maybe not. While the gas is available almost anywhere right in your home, the car takes a very long time to fill with the home-based Phill device and it's pretty pricey. So, you'd better have a CNG filling station nearby.
Here's a possible scenario. Honda builds about 1,000 Civic GXs a year and supply is short. Those are sold in California and New York only - states with strict environmental standards. Spokane Community College, which is in Washington State (not California or New York), wants to buy a fleet of GXs, as they have lots of CNG there, but the order is denied. Conspiracy! Or not. Maybe it costs Honda a bit more to make these than normal Civics. Maybe there really aren't enough of them to go around. We hope the cars become more widely available, but for now they aren't. Phill was just sold to Clean Energy Fuels, which could make them more prominent, but kills the idea that Honda is only interested in limiting its use. Feel free to read the whole thing here.
Gallery: 2007 Honda Civic GX
[Source: The Auto Channel / Edwin Black]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
UH2L 10:45PM (9/29/2008)
Who killed the CNG car? Honda :-) I'm waiting for that movie.
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John Baldwin 2:00AM (9/30/2008)
The Civic is not the correct vehicle for CNG because it can only operate on CNG. In Germany - even with 800 CNG stations - the new VW Passat CNG turbo and the Opel Zafira turbo are both great CNG vehicles, but both also run on petrol.
Clearly the customer wants to run on CNG as the price is 50% of the gasoline price, but they do have the freedom to go very long dstances (Passat = 800km). The US should consider changing its regulations to allow CNG vehicles (which can run on biomethane) that have a petrol reserve - customers will buy them in very large numbers.
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as2k 2:14AM (9/30/2008)
I like John's reasoning.
I remember seeing something on television about multi-fuel vehicles in Brazil - able to run on CNG, gasoline, ethanol or an Ethanol blend. Multiple options at the pump, fill up on whatever's cheapest and the ECU will handle the rest.
Something like that - with the infrastructure to support it - would likely be widely embraced.
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Raoul 5:48AM (9/30/2008)
AIR FRANCE / KLM orders AIR CAR of MDI !
http://www.ecolo-trader.fr/AIR-POD-vehicule-a-air-comprime-aux-couleurs-de--vtptc-150.php
The first step for this technology !
:-))
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Rich 7:42AM (9/30/2008)
Personally I don't doubt it.
Cars that get high mpg (>40) or use alternative fuels are simply not sold in the USA. Yes, I think it's a conspiracy.
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Ken 1:03PM (9/30/2008)
Ditto what "John Baldwin" said above. Totally agree.
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Bill 11:24AM (9/30/2008)
What John said.
CNG-only vehicles are at best commuter cars.
Most in the U.S. have been government fleet vehicles.
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Sasparilla 1:16PM (9/30/2008)
Something to consider about the GX. Its price is about $24k here in the US. A fully loaded gas powered EX goes for around $20k, but the US government gives a $4k rebate for the GX. There's also a rebate for the PHIL (like $1k I think) and then the price per equivalent gallon of gasoline is 50% or so depending on what your natural gas costs. Long term operating price benefits could be significant.
You basically need to plug it in at night, to fill it up, like you would an electric or plug in hybrid vehicle. This seems like the perfect commuting vehicle, except you can't get one - I asked my dealership in Illinois if they could order one and they said no.
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B 8:58PM (9/30/2008)
It is infrastructure.
The GX is sold in CA and NY, because only a select few dealerships in those states can actually sell and perform maintenance on the GX.
Also the lack of filling stations is a problem, as CA is the only state with a decent CNG filling network that exists along its highways.
As for the GX's lack of standard equipment, such as a better sound system, or navigation... the GX is mostly sold to government municipalities, such as the DOT and Parks Department. There is no need to provide these options to a buyer who would never opt for them.
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Martin 10:37PM (9/30/2008)
B:
You are misinformed. There is a network of fueling stations throughout the country. You can see it, and check current prices at www.cngprices.com. CNG vehicles are especially popular in Utah.
Serge 10:57AM (10/02/2008)
I don't understand the arguments along the lines of "Maybe it costs Honda a bit more to make these than normal Civics."
If it does, just raise the price! As evidenced by high demand, the equilibrium point of supply meeting demand is at a higher price point!
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John Zoch 1:24PM (10/04/2008)
I just took delivery of a 2009 Honda Civic GX September 29, 2009 (the first in Austin, TX as far as I know).
Yes they do cost more. MSRP for the closest equivalent the Civic LX is $17,355. The GX costs $25,090 (info straight from their website). That's a $7,735 premium. Add to that the cost of a Phill installed (my quote is $6,695) and you're looking at a $14,430 premium. On the good side, the feds will give you a $4000 tax credit for the GX and $1000 for the Phill so your premium is reduced to $9,430. In Austin, TX, Texas Gas Service is offering a $2,000 rebate for the GX and $1,500 for the Phill. For me, that makes the CNG premium $5,930. Does this make economic sense? Depends. Look at the cost of gasoline -vs- CNG (120 cubic feet gas = 1 gallon of gasoline) in your area, your annual mileage and do the math to figure the break even point if dollars and cents is your only motivation. I expect to save $1400/year over my current car at today's prices. YMMV.
As for the conspiracy, I'm not sure Edwin Black's motivations are entirely pure. Obviously a conspiracy sells more books than a mere supply chain problem.
I started my Civic GX odyssey June 12, 2008 and I took delivery September 29, 2008 which is a bit shy of 4 months. This was during the 2008 to 2009 model year switchover so it took longer than it would normally.
My salesman informed me that, because of Honda moving their factory, that there may be no further deliveries of Honda Civic GXs until July 2009. Conspiracy? Prove it. Poor timing? Yep.
I don't run auto companies but I have a suggestion for Honda. Keep the one line in East Liberty, Ohio Factory open while preparing ONE of the two Greensburg, Indiana Factory lines. When the backlog is flushed out, move the East Liberty line to Greensburg, Indiana. You'll always have at least one Civic manufacturing line running this way. No shutdown and 10 month unavailability of Civic GXs.
As for Edwin Black's stereo "whole steps behind gasoline-based Civics" comment, well duh. The four speakers were reduced to two speakers because there's a big honking CNG tank where the speakers would go. As for the GPS, it's a low end car. If it was available, I'm not sure I'd spend $2000+ for a GPS when I can buy a portable one for $200 and be able to take it with me on trips. I already know my way around Austin.
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Kevin 10:53PM (10/05/2008)
I'm the salesman that sold John his car and I want to clear a few things up about Mr Black's article.
1. This isn't a conspiracy. It's just REALLY bad timing. We heard years ago that Honda was going to move the Civic factory to a larger facility. No one could have known that the scheduled downtime would occur right when Civics (gas and CNG) would be needed most. The good news is that the new factory will allow more production and therefore shorter waits on the GX.
2. With all the money Honda is throwing at the Ridgeline and Pilots to get them sold (upwards of $4000 rebates!), I would imagine that the Civic's are more profitable than the big heavies. Also, if Honda cared only about the bottom line why didn't they follow Toyota into the mass truck market? Do you realize how much money Honda left on the table by not jumping into the SUV market like everyone else did?
3. Here's my take on why the GX is such a low production car. The GX came out in 1998 to rave reviews. It was such a cool idea and it looked like it was going to work. Guess what, they were a flop sales wise. Why? Gasoline was cheap and CNG was hard to get. There just wasn't enough reason for the average consumer to burden themselves with with all the lifestyle changes the GX requires (lack of infrastructure, short range, cost, etc). In short, Honda got burned on the car. But they elected to keep the program alive, selling it to fleets and such. Now, 10 years later, gasoline has finally gotten expensive enough for this car to show up on the buying publics radar. Honda knows that the demand is there for the car and in fact they doubled the production for 2009 (to 2000 units), but unfortunately this is no where near enough.....
Hopefully Honda will put more trust in the NGV market and when the new factory starts up they will ramp up GX production to at least make this wait shorten up. I don't like telling everyone that asks about the car (and there are about 3-6 of them a day here in Austin) that they have to wait about 10 months.
Mr. Black should also do a bit more research on the subject before he starts stating things about the car like the radio. It's the exact same head unit that's on in the LX, EX (4dr), and Hybrid save for the fact it has less speakers due to the tank in the trunk. This car is also not offered in luxury trims since it's primary buyer for the last ten years has been fleets and governments and they aren't looking for those luxury items. As the car becomes more popular with the everyday car buyer then you will see more goodies added to the car to appease them. Also, the GX is not just sold in CA and NY. It's biggest consumer markets are Utah and Oklahoma, and we obviously sell them here in Texas.
If anyone, including Mr. Black, wants to chat about this subject feel free to call me at the dealership.
Kevin Childers
Howdy Honda
512-443-4300
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Oilcrisis 7:55PM (10/19/2008)
Black is known in CNG vehicle circles. You can see his speeches and aother articles on this forum going back years. From what can be seen at his website www.edwinblack.com, he has won numerous awards and been nominated for the Pulitzer Price several times. His last book, Internal Combustion, which involved a chapter extolling Honda and its CNG and Hydrogen cars--won several awards. See it at www.internalcombustionbook.com. Maybe some should check the source of the article before commenting. His latest work--which backs off from supporting Honda is lifted from his new book The Plan which has received many endorsements and is loaded with footnoted documentation. Perhaqps we should ask why Black changed his mind about Honda and why Honda remains silent weeks after the fact.
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Kevin 10:12PM (10/20/2008)
I just got off the phone with Mr. Black.
It seems I took his comments out of context, particularly the conspiracy part. We went over his article and my comments on this site and now I have a better understanding of where he's coming from. He and I share a frustration with the current state of alternative fuel vehicles and we would both like to see all the manufacturers (not just Honda) step up to the plate and make them more mainstream. He's a Honda fan that really wants them to take this program more seriously.
We ended the conversation with the agreement to stay in touch and compare notes so to speak about the goings on in the NGV world.
My apologies to Mr. Black for assuming too much here.
Kevin
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