Yes diesel! I have trouble understanding how a car that averages 50 mpg is sinking ship technology. Perhaps the (not so) big three will see they can sell diesels in America too! I would love an EV, but I have yet to see one!!

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Diesel has a lot of advantages. More torque, good highway mileage. BUT and this is a big BUT it has a lot of disadvantages. Here in the US low grade is $1.60 and diesel is $2.50. So you have to get 50% + more mileage on the highway to break even on gas. Not to mention the extra vehicle cost associated with diesel.
Then there is the fact the diesel pollutes more. So in the US where we have expensive diesel and higher emission standards, a diesel should NEVER be crowned the green car of the year. They just pollute too much and offer little cost savings, and only benefit those that primarily drive at hiqhway speeds (which is mostly rural drivers. City drivers still benefit way more from hybrids).

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Yes trouble ; one trouble is that many have trouble seeing the imminent consequences of fossil fuel burning .

( Apart from the horribly lousy efficiency of ICEs )

Cars as we've grown used to know them , really ought to be replaced by completely new new concepts of travel and transportation.

TECHNOLOGY
could easily combine
the convenience of automation with
the efficiency of 'on-demand' matching ,

but

GREED & CAPITALISM
will never take any responsibility whatsoever, unless forced by laws and threats of summons or instant disaster (climate collapse).
This is an additional trouble.

One of the most disturbing troubles is that
a whole generation is so deeply rooted in the system of 'automobiles', that the ability to imagine better system(s) is crippled.

As long as we let money alone steer our society we're really heading for trouble.

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Particulate Matter(PM) is a non-issue with modern 50 state legal diesels. You must not have received the memo.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf

T2B5 standards(for both gas and diesel, mind you) limit PM to 0.01g/mi. This is the same as Tier2 Bins 2-6 which covers virtually all passenger vehicles sold in the US currently. Bin 1 is reserved for vehicles which emit no pollution(ZEV in CARB-speak) and thus drops the PM limit to 0.00g/mi.

As far as the price differences between gas and diesel, see my post below.

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@montoym
Obviously if a car is to be sold in teh US it must meet emissions standards. That does not mean all cars within a bin pollute alike. Go to fueleconomy.gov to see that jetta diesel only gets a 6/10 score for air polution. A civic hybrid gets a 9/10 score. These cars are in the same bin but pollute different amounts. So when it comes to crowning a green car of the year. Why would you consider diesel which pollutes more than other cars.

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You obviously failed to read through the link I gave you.

For one, I was referring to the particulate emissions which you mentioned in your first comment. In that case, the Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI have the exact same limit on Particulate Matter(PM).

Also, a Civic Hybrid and a VW Jetta TDI are not in the same Bin either. The score you mentioned signifies that the Civic Hybrid is a T2B2 vehicle, the VW Jetta TDI is a T2B5 car. Check the link I gave you and you'll see on the right side of the page where those scores come from. Nonetheless, the PM limits for both Bins is the same and that was what you mentioned in your first comment. But, to refute the original point you made, if two vehicles are in the same Bin, they will ahve the exact same pollution limits. Not to say that their emissions will be exactly the same, but they will not exceed those limits.

Read up a little on the subject and we might have a conversation which gets us somewhere.

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"But, to refute the original point you made, if two vehicles are in the same Bin, they will ahve the exact same pollution limits. Not to say that their emissions will be exactly the same, but they will not exceed those limits."

How is that refuting what i said. That is exactly what i said in my previous post. They must meet the same standard for polution but that does not mean they pollute equally. And yes their particulate limits are the same for the tiers and bins they are in but that also does not mean the pollute the same amount. The jetta is has a poorer air polution score in comparison to other similar cars like the civic i mentioned. And this is coming from fueleconomy.gov. The jetta gets 6/10 and the prius and civic hybrids get 8-9.5/10 for their air polution score.

According to this site the Jetta absolutely produces more smog creating emissions. and i quote from the site explaining their air polution score

"The Air Pollution score represents the amount of health-damaging and smog-forming airborne pollutants the vehicle emits. Scoring ranges from 0 (worst) to 10 (best). This score does not include emissions of greenhouse gases (see the Climate Change rating). "

So according to the EPA the jetta does pollute more. Diesels rate worse than hybrids and worse than almost all gas burning cars in the same class. And smog pollutants are absolutely worse with diesels because their air pollution scores are lower.

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Once again reading comprehension fails you.

You are equating the Air Pollution score with the Tiers and Bins of the EPA standards. Even then, you are misreading something.

A Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI are not in the same Bin. That was your original claim. Here's the quote from you,

- "These cars are in the same bin but pollute different amounts." -

and a second quote in case your ignorance to what I am saying wasn't clear enough,

- "They must meet the same standard for polution but that does not mean they pollute equally. And yes their particulate limits are the same for the tiers and bins they are in" -

You got one part correct there, the particulate limits are the same for the Tiers and Bins they are in. That's it though. The reason they pollute differently is because they fit into different emissions standard categories.

Once again, the Civic Hybrid is a Tier2Bin2 car and that's the only reason it recieves a 9/10. The Jetta TDI is a Tier2Bin5 car and thats the only reason it achieves a 6/10. The 1-10 rankings are based solely on what Tier and Bin the car falls into. Find another T2B5 car and it will have the same 6/10 rating as the Jetta TDI. Same for the Civic Hybrid, find another T2B2 car and it also will have a 9/10 rating as well.

Look at this link once more and look at the far right column under Tier 2 Program. It's right there on the 1st page, you can't miss it.
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf

But, your original point was only regarding Particulates which I've refuted twice now. It seems that since your assumption was proven to be incorrect, you've now widened it to air pollution in general. In that sense you are right, the Civic Hybrid has higher (total)emissions than a Jetta TDI. I admit that, never said it wasn't true. But, you are completely ignoring the reason why which I've pointed out to you twice now and you still don't get it.

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wow you are missing the point entirely and getting hung up with one part of my point. I agree and have agreed with you captain reading comprehension (whom needs improvement) that the particulate matter is the same for the tiers and bins that these cars are in. However not all cars in the same tier or bin (or to clarify for monobrow, with the same particulate limit in their tier or bin) emit the same amount of pollutants. The fact is that the jetta pollutes more. This is verified by the fact that it gets a lower rating from fueleleconomy.gov. Yes the 10 point scale doesnt give you particulate numbers but if they get a lower scale for "the amount of health-damaging and smog-forming airborne pollutants the vehicle emits" then the car obviously puts out more particulates.

Monotone, the point is that the jetta pollutes more than other cars in its class. The other cars in its class may be in different tiers and bins but what does that matter. The Jetta pollutes more.

So to get back to my original point for Mr Monocell here
"Diesel should never be green COTY"
diesel pollutes more. That is the discussion here and monotrack has not refuted this twice. He is just hung up on particulate matter, but has no data other than the bin limits. He has not proven that the jetta actually produces the same particulates as the civic. The only evidence we have is its 6/10 rating.

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Well, based on the actual certified emissions data (available at http://www.epa.gov/oms/crttst.htm (EPA) and http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/2009.php (CARB)), the '09 Jetta TDI has as low or lower overall emissions than either of the two gas competitors other that possibly NOx.

The Jetta TDI also does not have the evaporative emissions of the gassers. HC is the pollutant responsible for urban smog, not NOx.

So, I don't agree that "diesels pollute more". These new "clean diesels" pollute less, if anything, regardless of the "green score" they're assigned.

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well a jetta diesel gets 30/41
the non diesel that is a 5 cylinder gets 21/31
with diesel costing 55% more, the diesel would have to get 33/48 to have the same fuel cost as the 5cylinder.
Compare it to something like a civic that gets 25/36 and it makes even less sense. The jetta diesel would have to get 55mpg on the highway to match the civics $/mi gas cost at the current gas prices

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Well, if diesel prices were 55% higher than gas, you're analysis would make a bit of sense. At least as much sense as it makes to buy a car based on a snapshot of fuel prices anyhow(that is to say, none).

Looking at prices nationally, the only way that makes sense given the nature of this website, diesel is less than 45% more expensive than gasoline right now. Today's national average for regular gasoline is $1.65/gal. Diesel is currently at $2.37/gal. That's an actual difference of 43.6%.

Let's do a little math to see what that difference means. Using the same EPA data you did for the Jetta, if the diesel Jetta needs to perform 44%(rounded up) better than the gas version that means it would need to achieve 30/45. Not too far off from the actual EPA figures. That's not even counting that the EPA figures for diesels are typically quite low. A TDI Jetta driver can likely expect closer to 50mpg hwy vs. the 40 that the EPA claims.

During the high prices of the summer and before, diesel maintained about a 15% price difference with regular gasoline and I believe we'll get back to that level(if not even lower) in the coming months(think around spring).

There are two main items which have created the price difference we are seeing currently. One is the rapid decrease in oil prices. That decrease(along with a similarly large decrease in miles driven by Americans) also lead to a rapid decrease in gasoline prices. Note that since oil prices have leveled-off(relatively speaking), so have gas prices.

Since Dec. 8th, gas prices have dropped less than 5cents/gal nationally. On the other hand, diesel prices have continued to fall, dropping 15cents/gal over the same timeframe.

There is a reason for this. The demand for diesel fuel has been kept high due to the increased demand for home heating oil(very similar products). Being winter and all, this is when the demand for home heating oil is highest. As the winter wears on and moves into spring, expect to see that demand decrease which will translate into lower prices for diesel.

In other words, don't count on diesel prices 45-55% higher than gasoline to be the norm. It's no more normal than the financial malaise that the country(and World) finds itself in right now.


Here is a link to back up my data: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

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here in Texas diesel is $0.90-$1 more per gallon than regular gas. Here it does average out to 55% more for diesel. During the height of the gas crisis this summer it still was averaging $1 more per gallon than regular. That equated to almost 25% higher pricing than regular gas. Less of a difference but still a difference.

I love that everyone claims that diesel drivers should expect far better mileage than the EPA states. News flash this is the same for all cars if driven responsibly. Fit owners regularly claim mid 40s for a car only rated at 34mpg.

Monotone said....
"Using the same EPA data you did for the Jetta, if the diesel Jetta needs to perform 44%(rounded up) better than the gas version that means it would need to achieve 30/45. Not too far off from the actual EPA figures."

well comparing an inefficient 5 cylinder jetta to a smaller displacement 4cylinder diesel is not the proper comparison. But even with that comparison the diesel looses. It still needs 10% better hwy mileage to match those numbers. And the diesel car cost more. Factor that 44% into a car like a civic (25/36) and the jetta diesel needs to get (36/52) to match the $/mi of a civic which costs thousands less to begin with.

I do agree that diesels are great for decreasing oil consumption, and getting torque in an economy car. But they simply do not cost less to operate or purchase and they are inferior to hybrids. The only case where the diesel shines over the hybrid is in highway cruising. Most of us do little open road cruising compared to city driving.

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quote from BoneheadOtto: -
"I love that everyone claims that diesel drivers should expect far better mileage than the EPA states. News flash this is the same for all cars if driven responsibly. Fit owners regularly claim mid 40s for a car only rated at 34mpg." -

First off, I'm not disagreeing with you. A careful driver can achieve better mileage in most any car. I never once disputed that. The difference is that with a diesel driver will tend to achieve better mileage without changing their driving habits. Recall that the Jetta TDI Cup cars achieved 25mpg during race conditions. You can get better than the EPA figures without hypermiling it.

Secondly, show me these claims of mid 40mpg mileage for a Honda Fit. From respectable sources as well, not one guy down the street who said it happened once and has a hand-written note to prove it.

I'll gladly show you several instances of where TDI's regularly achieve better than the EPA figures.

The fueleconomy.gov site shows that for the '09 TDI Jetta automatic, real-world drivers have an average of 40mpg. That's an average as well, not a hwy figure. Granted, that is only 15 drivers, but the car did just recently arrive here.

For the manual, the average is also 40mpg, but from only 6 drivers.

Motor Trend has added one to their long-term fleet and after 7000 miles they've averaged 34.9mpg. Not spectacular, but still beating the EPA combined figure considering that auto reviewers tend to be quite lead-footed.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/112_0902_2009_volkswagen_jetta_tdi_arrival/index.html

For comparison's sake, Motor Trend also had a Prius in their long-term fleet which averaged 41.6mpg over some 22K miles.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/112_0601_2004_toyota_prius/gas_mileage.html Well below the 55mpg average that was shown on the Monroney sticker or even the 46mpg of the updated mileage stickers.

Popular Mechanics managed 45.4mpg hwy in their test.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4284188.html?page=2
The same test where they managed 44.8mpg hwy from a Prius. So, the Jetta outperformed the EPA test(and by more than 5mpg as well), but the Prius performed virtually identical to the EPA figures. Not surprising. The '08 changes in the EPA figures were made precisely with hybrids in mind. They were so inaccurate before that they were updated and implemented across the board.

However, for diesels particularly, the old ratings are closer to more accurate, at least more so than the outlandish 60mpg ratings for the Prius which virtually no one could achieve. Looking at the last Jetta TDI available here, in '06, the TDI was rated at 35/42 using the old rating method. Drivers on fueleconomy.gov are showing an average of 41.2mpg for that model, still over the old EPA figures, but much closer than the updated '08 method which puts that car at 30/38.

Edmunds tested the '09 Jetta TDI and achieved 35.3mpg in their testing.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=132146/pageNumber=3

Edmunds also has an '09 Jetta TDI in their long-term fleet and is averaging 34.9mpg so far.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/112_0902_2009_volkswagen_jetta_tdi_arrival/index.html

Edmunds also tested an '09 Honda Fit and achieved 30mpg combined which is 1mpg over the EPA combined figure for the car. I'm thinking a 45mpg hwy average was not part of that.
www.edmunds.com/new/2009/honda/fit/101061257/roadtestarticle.html&articleId=132028

Additionally, Edmunds had an '04 Prius in their long-term fleet which managed 41.4mpg over 40K miles.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=101393/pageNumber=8

I'm noticing a trend here.

I'm not even bothering with responding to the rest of your comment. Quite honestly, it made little sense. I made the same comparisons as you did with the same vehicles and you claimed that it was "not a proper comparison".

Nonetheless, I'd much rather drive a TDI Jetta than a Civic on any stripe(except possibly the Si). Unlike you, I don't choose my vehicles specifically based on which one gets the best mileage or is the cheapest. Bottom line is, a TDI Jetta offers fewer compromises than many other cars that achieve similar mileage.

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you should change your name to monologue

"Unlike you, I don't choose my vehicles specifically based on which one gets the best mileage or is the cheapest."

um that is not what this thread is about. Personally i drive a 2002 WRX which i purchased for driving pleasure and cause its a great car. What started this discussion was the question in the first post.

"If I can get 35 city in a diesel then the price of diesel is negated by the jump in mpg? "

To which i replied that no the price is diesel far outstrips the benefits especially when considering the added vehicle purchase price. From your above duscussion (which kudos has a lot of good links and information)
- The Jetta TDI averages 35-40 depending on who you talk to.
- The prius averages 41-45 depending on who you talk to (fueleconomy.gov users average 45)
- The Fit well you only quoted one source where it got 30mpg. The same source that only got 35mpg in the jetta TDI. If you take a look at fueleconomy.gov, manual drivers are getting 35mpg.

Since this discussion is about whether it is cost effective to upgrade to a diesel, the answer is clearly and resoundingly no. A prius costs the same as a jetta TDI yet returns far better cost per mile. A fit costs $8-10k less than a jetta TDI and still costs less to operate per mile after factoring in the fuel price differences. Obviously that should not be your only criteria when purchasing a car but that is the discussion at hand.

antonym said
"I made the same comparisons as you did with the same vehicles and you claimed that it was "not a proper comparison"."

Its not a good comparison. Comparing a 2.5L jetta 5cylinder gas mileage to a 2.0L 4cylinder diesel is not a good comparison to show the fuel savings obtained by going to diesel. The 5cylinder is a hog, and the diesel should be compared to a car in its class that gets good mileage like a civic, or a Prius. That comparison is not a very valid one because it takes the worst performing gas engine in its class and compares it to a diesel to derive the cost benefits of diesel. Why do you find that hard to comprehend.

Anyway thanks for the above email because it really proved just how much better the cost per mile is with the Jetta TDIs competition. That said i would rather drive a jetta TDI than a prius but atleast i wouldnt fool myself into thinking im somehow saving money.

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