Better Place answers questions about home charging, Obama's interest
Over the weekend, we heard a story that the Obama Administration "may be adopting" the Better Place model of powering electric cars. We wanted to know more about what this means, exactly, and got the following from Better Place PR:
Better Place has shared their model with a number of government and industry leaders around the world in the past two years and believe that their model is applicable to the entire US under the right economic conditions. They're hopeful that California and Hawaii will serve as an important blueprint for how the model could work across the entire country.
So, not a lot of confirmation of anything there. But we also had a bit of a backlog of questions we wanted to ask Better place, so we took the opportunity to try and get answers to those as well. Click past the jump to learn about how universal the Better Place chargers are, if you can charge your Better Place car at home and more.
Gallery: Better Place Around The World
[Source: Better Place]
ABG: The "agreements" that we hear about Better Place making with places like Australia and Hawaii, are they MOUs or signed deals? Can I get a list of each location where Better Place has publicly said they will be (or hope to be) operating in and information on whether each is an official, signed deal or an MOU?
BP: Better Place is in discussions with more than 25 countries, plus many major automakers and local partners. Better Place will not disclose specific plans until our partners are prepared to do so. Currently, Better Place has agreements in place in Israel, Denmark, Australia, California, Hawaii, and was the only foreign company invited to participate in a electric car trial in Japan, with Honda, Subaru and Mitsubishi.
ABG: I'd also like a little more clarification on what a Better Place customer can do with their car. If he or she wants to charge their Better Place/Renault/Nissan vehicle at home, either because they have solar panels, say, or want to take advantage of cheaper nighttime rates, will this be possible?
BP: Charge spots will be installed at homes, places of work and most retail locations. Better Place will provide safety and energy management services for all charge spots. Wherever we can, Better Place will partner with local electric utilities, such as Hawaiian Electric Companies, to utilize renewable energy sources, including solar, to power the Better Place network.
ABG: You say that a non-Better Place customer can get power from a Better Place charging station using "an easily-installed converter"? What is this converter? How much will it cost? Will Better Place not be using the J1772 interface standard in their charging stations
BP: Better Place is working with the broader community to develop industry standards that can be applied to all EVs around the world. We are building an open-standards based network, so any EV driver to connect with our charge spot.
ABG: In the cars, how are the battery-to-vehicle connectors designed? How many swap outs does Better Place estimate they will be able to handle before needing replacement? Is the automated swap-out process designed to completely eliminate the chance that a person could come be arced or in any way injured?
BP: The battery switch stations are designed to for convenience and safety. Drivers should only have to use the battery switch stations in the event that they drive beyond 100 miles, failing that they should be able to effectively 'top off' their vehicle whenever it's parked. The idea is that you swap your battery less than you would fill up your tank with gas.
The swapping stations will be completely automated and will not require human interaction with the battery or machinery thus eliminating the risk of injury.
ABG: At what price difference between gasoline and electricity does the Better Place model no longer work?
BP: According to Deloitte, a pure electric vehicle model, such as Better Place's, should not be more expensive than a gasoline/diesel vehicle. And in most countries, operating costs could be much lower. Including electricity and depreciation on the battery, the cost of a mile should be no more than $0.07. This compares with $0.24 per mile for $6.00/gal gasoline in Europe and $0.15-$0.20 for $3.00-$4.00 gasoline in the United States.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Tom 9:22PM (12/23/2008)
It appears from their vague response that they do not want customers providing their own power for the vehicles but that "Charge spots will be installed at homes" which means it will be theirs, not ours. Personally, I don't want to replace one corporate controller of energy (oil companies) for another (Better Place).
If I buy an electric car and I own my own power generation capability (PV, wind, etc.) then I want the option to provide my own power I've prepaid for by installing the generation capacity.
Better Place has not impressed me with this model but I get the distinct impression that they are proposing this model because it will look familiar enough to legislators who don't know any better.
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Lad 11:37PM (12/23/2008)
Work is underway to create a V2G (Vehicle to Grid) distributed network where EV batteries will act as a storage units for the grid and will assist in buffering the electrical load on the grid during peak demands. Also local microcomputers, mainframes and a com network using the power lines will be involved to monitor and create cost data for charge back services. As I understand the "Better Place" model, they will provide electron charging services at a cost; however, that cost will be designed around the way you pay for cell phone service and in some cases the car will be provided almost free if you commit to a long enough contract.
I think there will be many alternative available to everyone outside of "Better Place." Instead of paying a monthly fee for charging you BEV and having "Better Place" worry about the battery health and swapping. The will be BEVs you can buy off the showroom floor and plug in at home and charge with your solar array and wind generator, etc. and finally when your battery needs to be replace, you can buy a new one. So the model doesn't meet every-one's plans; however, it is a way to get BEVs on the road immediately and to start reducing our need for oil now!
Tom 11:59PM (12/23/2008)
I've long felt that V2G was highly overrated. Given enough mass of BEVs then it might be possible for enough of them plugged in to have a moderating effect on a grid but mainland grids are so large it almost doesn't matter in terms of balancing the grid in any real way.
On true island grids, like we have here in Hawaii, such balancing by a big enough private fleet of BEVs would work well but we are a rare condition.
I completely agree that anything that helps move us along to electric drive vehicles is a good thing but my suspicion is that Better Place doesn't see itself as a bridge technology but as the new model and is positioning itself politically to outcompete privately owned vehicles.
That's what worries me about operations like Better Place, more than the technological issues.
nads 2:51AM (12/24/2008)
"I completely agree that anything that helps move us along to electric drive vehicles is a good thing but my suspicion is that Better Place doesn't see itself as a bridge technology but as the new model and is positioning itself politically to outcompete privately owned vehicles."
They are setting themselves up to "outcompete privately owned vehicles"?? You must not mean "cars"....otherwise this comment sounds pretty bizarre. So what exactly are they trying to outcompete?
Tom 12:39PM (12/24/2008)
They want to be the business model for ownership of electric vehicles because they make money on the energy sales, treating customers as subscribers to their technology, not the owners of it. So vehicles that are not part of their charging system subscription don't get to recharge at their stations and favoring the Better Place model over privately owned electric vehicles with their own charging stations I can certainly envision local political entities creating regulations that favor Better place installations in homes over other charging systems that are owner controlled and installed.
You need look no farther than the alternative energy industry to see that in action. If you've ever tried to install your own PV or wind system or talk to installers who install them in many different locales you'll quickly realize that getting regulations in place that favor one technology over another is standard practice and that local entities are not all that savvy about the technology and thus are happy to let some "expert" (Better Place for example) come in and "help" them set up "standards".
anon 1:30PM (12/24/2008)
RE: Nads 12-24-2008 @ 2:50AM
"The most logical reason for them to be forming partnerships with governments would if they wanted to license a model for widespread deployment of EV charging stations..."
Or, to get exclusive charging rights to an area.
What happens if anytime you charge up - no matter whether you bought a Better Place (BP) EV or not - you have to go through BP because they have exclusive rights to provide charging services for your area?
Ask yourself: If BP's business plan is so good and they're backed by Deutsche Bank and Nissan-Renault (both pretty big companies with lots of resources) why don't they have the money to do all this already? Why do they need to do a deal with our government?
My guess is Better Place's plan is to be like your local cable company. A private company, acting like a utility, because they have exclusive rights for your area, so you have no choice.
As Tom points out, there are more than a few other examples of this throughout the history of the United States, businesses using the power of the government to establish a cartel.
Again, maybe I am needlessly concerned about BP, Shai Agassi, and their plans. But, it's not like I don't have reason to be.
nads 10:36PM (12/23/2008)
It appears from their vague response that they do not want customers providing their own power for the vehicles but that "Charge spots will be installed at homes" which means it will be theirs, not ours."
If the response was vague then it was inconclusive, meaning don't jump ahead of yourself with wild conclusions. Ever thought they might not be gun-hoe on this idea because of the risks associated with advertising DIY high-voltage home retrofitting? How do you think it would look if someone fried themselves trying to hook up one of their stations to a home generator? They're barely off the ground and you want them to dive headfirst toward their greatest potential liability? It might be a possibility, but you probably won't know until they start offering it to the public,and even then it probably would require a licensed electrician to set up.
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anon 11:26PM (12/23/2008)
I agree with you on just about everything that you say in your post but there's one thing I'd like to focus on.
"It might be a possibility, but you probably won't know until they start offering it to the public..."
The concern that I have (and one that I think is shared by others) is that by that point they've already got an agreement with the government and not with us.
Every other EV firm has to go get venture capital or a well financed partner, build a product or provide a service, and then compete for our cash. Better Place is signing agreements with governments, that are... well... we don't know that yet.
And so that, the vague answers above, and Agassi's WaPo interview a week or two back that didn't answer the questions I have either, are all things that have me a bit concerned.
Perhaps as you point out I'm needlessly concerned, but I'm concerned nevertheless.
Tom 12:11AM (12/24/2008)
You miss my point. It wasn't about homeowners installing Better Place charging stations but of forcing customers into the Better Place business model as either the only choice or the primary choice for consumers in certain markets. There will be limited political and monetary support for such early models and how that support is distributed, especially the political support, can mean success or failure for EV companies and the best way for the technology to develop on the basis of quality is to have as much variety as possible in the development phase of the technology.
That's why having EVs that range from electrified skate boards to electric mopeds and motorcycles to NEVs and on up to the very high end Tesla does more to fuel adoption of the technology than a single company jumping ahead by greasing the political wheels.
nads 2:50AM (12/24/2008)
"The concern that I have (and one that I think is shared by others) is that by that point they've already got an agreement with the government and not with us."
This comment don't make any sense....at all. The most logical reason for them to be forming partnerships with governments would if they wanted to license a model for widespread deployment of EV charging stations, something that is only possible with direct government involvement and major financial backing. I don't know how someone would expect something like this to be done only through "us" consumers...thats usually not how businesses work.
"And so that, the vague answers above, and Agassi's WaPo interview a week or two back that didn't answer the questions I have either, are all things that have me a bit concerned."
Thats probably for competitive advantage. Maybe they're taking a wait and see about how this new admin will approach the issue. Maybe they just don't want to give away their operating plans to soon before they expect to begin actual work, especially considering the level of disinfo that will inevitably be thrown their way if their model is competitive against the oil industry. Thats just business, and unless you have money invested in them, I wouldn't be losing any sleep.
nads 2:52AM (12/24/2008)
"You miss my point. It wasn't about homeowners installing Better Place charging stations but of forcing customers into the Better Place business model as either the only choice or the primary choice for consumers in certain markets."
Basically, what I said before still stands. You don't even know their official business model yet as the agreements haven't been detailed, so you can't say if anybody will be "forced" to do anything. And I doubt their political clout is greater than the electric companies powering the different regions and countries, who would probably want their own charging stations installed if their was profit in it.
"That's why having EVs that range from electrified skate boards to electric mopeds and motorcycles to NEVs and on up to the very high end Tesla does more to fuel adoption of the technology than a single company jumping ahead by greasing the political wheels."
How would BP prevent the development of EVs from different platforms? Its a charging station. At most it would set up a uniform standard for charging them but that wouldn't impact development of different models. Gas stations are all one standard, and you can fill up pretty much anything that runs on gasoline at one. How would a charging station be any different for EVs? A lack of charging infrastructure is holding down EV production and adoption, so again, how would putting such an infrastructure in place be bad for EVs?
anon 2:05PM (12/24/2008)
Oops, comment #6 should go here.
Lad 1:56AM (12/24/2008)
We all are right to be concerned with one company or group of companies gaining political advantages in a competing field. God knows we have see that at work before in the telephone industry with AT&T and the oil industry through their lobbyist, The American Petroleum Institute.
However, I believe "Better Place"(BP) is a good starting point if the politicians work the languge over to make sure they: 1.) don't give "BP" public funding and 2.) excusive rights.
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Jorg 2:33AM (12/25/2008)
BetterPlace says: "Including electricity and depreciation on the battery, the cost of a mile should be no more than $0.07. This compares with $0.24 per mile for $6.00/gal gasoline in Europe and $0.15-$0.20 for $3.00-$4.00 gasoline in the United States."
Hmm, that means with gas now as low as $1.45 in the States, gas is only costing $0.07 per mile, meaning, no advantage to switching. Only time will tell if it stays cheap enough for long enough to kill electric cars again...
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Chris M 11:51PM (12/26/2008)
The cost of "electric fuel" alone would be about 2 cents per mile, the other 5 cents is the average depreciation on the battery packs.
So to compare it to gasoline, you'd need to add in the depreciation on the gas engine, too.
Result, plug-ins still have an advantage.
DCK 6:06PM (12/31/2008)
Agree with comments about Better Place business model.
Our Company has a small wind turbine that can be used to recharge electic batteries from your home. This should be introduced as an alternative to BP charging sites.
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Hemonster 5:39PM (1/11/2009)
BP offers what no other company offers, a free EV (or heavily subsidised) in replacement for a subscription service for miles/kms travelled. This guarantees for them demand so they can convince car manufacturers and energy generators for a "buy in" ... without that, this project is no where. However once you have demand, you only need to worry about supply and thats why they need a major car manufacturer to buy-in or the project falls apart.
Obviously this means that charging from your own energy sources is a no-no, because then the people who subsidised the EV for you is now not able to make money (ie. the model fails). If you privately own your on EV, then you are entirely free to charge from your own electricity source of choice. This is independent of BP and they have no reason to support you if you don't subscribe to their charge spots - similar in a way you can't take a cellular phone and use a network without first getting a subscription to that network.
BP will also not be inclined to sell EVs without a subscription plan, because that defeats again their model and can't meet their business obligations to their partners that make up the solution.
I think in terms of penetration of EVs world wide, this is the most innovative plan that is using a proven model (ie. cellular) to bring people off fossil fuels. They have my vote.
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Chris M 6:17PM (1/11/2009)
I can understand why they'd want to limit their battery swaps to their own leased batteries - swapping wouldn't work if they had to deal with lots of other battery owners - but restricting their customers to use ONLY their own PBP chargers is unnecessarily restrictive and ultimately counter-productive.
Why should customers be required to get all their recharging through PBP chargers only? So PBP can charge an extra toll, even when the charger is in the customers home and the customer is supplying the electricity to that charger, thus getting billed twice for the same electricity? What if the customer is looking for a charge, but there are no PBP chargers nearby, wouldn't they want to be able to use other charging facilities, or even a standard electrical outlet in an emergency? From that evasive answer, apparently PBP is thinking "Too bad, no can do, we need the money more than you".
What about those who own their own batteries and are not interested in swapping? Will PBP refuse to provide charging services to them? With the potential success of PHEVs, that would unnecessarily restrict their market.
Fortunately, PBP will have no choice but to change their monopolistic attitude, as they've got competition in the public charging business.
Hemonster 7:16PM (1/11/2009)
Hi Chris,
>Why should customers be required to get all their recharging >through PBP chargers only? So PBP can charge an extra toll, >even when the charger is in the customers home and the >customer is supplying the electricity to that charger, thus >getting billed twice for the same electricity?
You don't get billed twice as PBP refunds your electricity usage for charging their batteries. Not sure how that will actually work though, but seems fair seeing that they are selling miles and not electrons.
>What if the customer is looking for a charge, but there are no >PBP chargers nearby, wouldn't they want to be able to use >other charging facilities, or even a standard electrical outlet in >an emergency?
The chargers are smart metered, know who they are connected to, and are able to transfer energy both ways for V2G applications. It complicates things if you need to also account for charging from standard outlets. You make a good point about emergency situations though, I wonder if you would able to share a charge from car to car?
>From that evasive answer, apparently PBP is thinking "Too >bad, no can do, we need the money more than you".
This project can't happen if nobody makes money out of it ...that's just how the world works. If they find a way to give you a free EV and still make money for themselves and their partners, it secures economics for their region and also opens up the model for competitors to follow. I agree that municipals should not agree to any exclusivity for only PBP chargers to be installed, but anybody who adheres to a standard protocol. This will however largely be defined by PBP because they have first mover advantage and is the first company that will have any such experience in the area.
>What about those who own their own batteries and are not >interested in swapping? Will PBP refuse to provide charging >services to them? With the potential success of PHEVs, that >would unnecessarily restrict their market.
These will be people who charge using their own sources of electricity in their custom EVs. As I understand it personal battery ownership is not part of the PBP model, hence will unlikely be offered. People who have non PBP EVs will have home charging facility provided by the vendor of that EV or oppurtunity charging where ever there is a plug point. You just don't get battery swapping ... for most people this is still a very viable alternative. However rest assured that the up-front and on-going cost of owning an EV (and its battery) outright will be much more expensive, hence prove to be much less desirable.