New CARB rules could put an end to PHEV conversions
Chris Duffey - East Bay Express
The California government agency charged with protecting air quality in the Golden State appears set to kill off a burgeoning industry that is trying to protect the same air. As companies such as 3ProngPower pop up to convert existing hybrids to plug-in capability, they could be snuffed out by having to follow the same rules as the automakers. The California Air Resources Board will be deciding next week on new rules that would require conversion shops to do the same emissions tests and offer the same warranties that automakers do. Under CARB rules, parts that affect emissions have to be warranted for 10 years or 150,000 miles. 3Prong Power is using lead acid batteries that only last 2-3 years and a 10-year warranty would be economically impossible.
The other issue is emissions tests. In order to pass the emissions cycle, the catalytic converter must be working properly. The catalyst doesn't really function until it warms up, meaning that cold starts produce most of a vehicle's emissions. Automakers calibrate their hybrids to keep the engine running after the initial start until the catalyst warms up and then run it periodically to keep it warm. Tampering with the controls of the vehicle by adding plug-in capability could cause a problem with this, preventing the catalyst from ever warming up. Thus, if the engine runs for short periods you could end up with far more emissions than a conventional car.
[Source: East Bay Express]
The other issue is emissions tests. In order to pass the emissions cycle, the catalytic converter must be working properly. The catalyst doesn't really function until it warms up, meaning that cold starts produce most of a vehicle's emissions. Automakers calibrate their hybrids to keep the engine running after the initial start until the catalyst warms up and then run it periodically to keep it warm. Tampering with the controls of the vehicle by adding plug-in capability could cause a problem with this, preventing the catalyst from ever warming up. Thus, if the engine runs for short periods you could end up with far more emissions than a conventional car.
[Source: East Bay Express]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Korben 7:48PM (1/19/2009)
This is such tripe and so like CARB to do. Understandably the auto manufacturers do not want to have the hassle of OEM groups creating problems with their customer's having issues with the after-market installs.
But like so many vehicles converted to electric, there is NO engine to emit anything. These PHEV companies are allowing the customer to stop using the engine. Why would anyone be required to accommodate emissions standards, if there are no emissions.
Or for the sake of lowering the necessity for the use of the engine, these PHEV conversion companies should be rewarded by CARB, not punished.
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Red 11:37PM (1/19/2009)
"These PHEV companies are allowing the customer to stop using the engine. Why would anyone be required to accommodate emissions standards, if there are no emissions."
Dunno where you get your information from, but 3Prong's conversion still uses the engine. Hence, "PHEV conversion". They're selling a product to a customer under the guise that it works, for several thousands of dollars. If this were a $200 conversion I might agree with you, but for that kind of coin, there should be a guarantee it will work, if for no other reason than it creates consumer confidence.
Korben 1:30PM (1/20/2009)
I should clarify. The PHEV companies allow the customer to stop using the engine at low speeds (at most 40MPH) and up to 40 miles at a time. If the customer only drives to work at total of 40 miles in one direction and can charge at work and then drive home. The Engine will never be used in commuting
Granted not all Aftermarket companies provide 40 miles-worth of travel on a single battery pack charge, per the case of 3prongpower (up to 10 miles). The purpose however is to allow the customer to not need the gas engine (or at least not need it as often).
Proof of this concept is provided by Google.org (http://www.google.org/recharge/). Where in Ford Escape's and Toyota Prius' were converted to PHEV's and driven, receiving up to 49 MPG and 93 MPG respectively.
If the PHEV companies are doing anything at all for the customer, it is not to decrease the performance of the vehicles, but drastically improve it. I will rescind my statement that there are "no emissions". But my point is that the purpose is to reduce if not potentially eliminate them.
If you could drive less than the maximum distance of the battery pack, the emissions of your vehicle would be limited to the carbon-dioxide emitted from it's driver's breath.
ShaunneyCakes 8:32PM (1/19/2009)
In my opinion, a company should not be required to offer a warranty of any kind for any reason. If someone wants to make a $10,000 light bulb which lasts 35 seconds without a warranty, that is their right. Everyone who has purchased these products know how long they last and from what I understand, are pretty happy with them.
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Mark 2:44AM (1/20/2009)
I agree with you 100% but there are consumer ativities who have their heart in the right place who would disagree with you and say that if they company can't give a guarantee they they shouldn't be operating. But I agree with you :)
Mark 8:44PM (1/19/2009)
Big Oil/Big Auto lobbying strikes again...
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sydbot 11:22PM (1/19/2009)
In California? Hah!
Toshi 12:48AM (1/20/2009)
If these PHEV conversions are half-assed and result in higher smog-forming pollutant emissions then CARB is acting properly in regulating them.
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Paul Sallmen 1:51AM (1/20/2009)
I see the Nanny State is alive and well in the CSR (California Socialist Republic). I can understand the need to regulate auto exhaust, but CARB has crossed the line. It is this innovation that has led to progress. It is aftermarket conversions to EVs and PHEVs, and small automotive startups like Aptera and Zenn that are convincing the major car manufacturers to get off their collective sorry a88es to change the status quo.
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why not the LS2LS7? 3:59AM (1/20/2009)
If the conversions don't increase emissions, they won't have any problems will they? If they do increase emissions, why would they get a pass?
If Toyota could ignore emissions, they could increase the Prius mpg. But they have to follow the rules and so does everyone else, in order to be fair.
why not the LS2LS7? 4:06AM (1/20/2009)
These are not new rules. My 1991 Saturn SC was covered by the same rules. All emissions-related parts of the car must be covered by a 10 year warranty. And any modification to the car that could affect emissions must be tested. Hence "50 state legal" (CARB certified) replacement exhaust systems cost a lot more due to the testing. This is why most exhaust systems are only "cat-back" (only change things after the catalytic converters) so they don't have to be tested. ABG even has a tag "CARB aftermarket exhaust" they've used for at least one story on this topic.
These rules are at least 15 years old. They're older than this blog. They've been around longer than most people on here have been on the internet. There is absolutely no need for ABG or the rabid anti-CARB people on here to get excited.
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Red 4:28AM (1/20/2009)
Agreed. Also, since these conversions are technically aftermarket, there's no reason they shouldn't be governed by the same rules. AEM's air intakes, GReddy's turbo kits and Magnaflow's exhausts all have to follow the same rules, hence why they all come with CARB-pending or CARB-certified notification often right on the part. If this move happens, I certainly wish these companies the best of luck adapting to the implementation, but I don't exactly feel bad for them.
montoym 11:47PM (1/20/2009)
I agree with both of you.
It seems when the CARB goes after aftermarket performance companies, all is well. But as soon as the same CARB rules affect an aftermarket company focused on efficiency, that's bad?
There should not be a double standard there.
If these aftermarket companies have their hearts in the right place(being green), then they should have no problem proving that their changes won't affect the effective life of the existing emissions equipment. If their changes do affect the existing equipment, it seems that they should make the required changes to meet the required warranty term. Anything else would seem to appear to be less green, at least in my eyes.
After all, what good are they doing if their changes cause the emissions equipment to fail and allow the vehicles to spew large amounts of pollutants into the atmosphere? Basically, that's all CARB is protecting here, the standard 10yr emissions control warranty already in effect.
On a side note, this may be part of the reason for the long wait time for the Volt and other PHEVs from major manufacturers. These major manufacturers can't just come out with a PHEV and claim that all is well if they can't meet the emissions warranty. The aftermarket companies are acting oblivious to the warranty which is a luxury the major manufacturers can't afford to have. Soon, it seems the aftermarket companies won't have that luxury either.
Nick 5:16AM (1/20/2009)
To send CARB your comments on this change:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/lispub/comm/bcsubform.php?listname=phev09&comm_period=A
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Tim 1:35PM (1/20/2009)
Federalism, Socialism, Fascism and Marxism are ALL forms of Statism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism
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marlon 5:03AM (1/23/2009)
Is Alan Lloyd still with CARB? Tsk tsk.
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mr.vail 9:04PM (1/22/2009)
Simple California needs $$$
But the small shops can't pay it, The big auto makers can, and may to keep out the small guys. NAH! they would'nt do something like that, would they?
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bobby 3:29AM (1/24/2009)
big oil, can you spell rockefeller, chevron, exxon et al?
i personally know a inventor that invented a carborator that got well over 100 mpg......big oil bought his patent for under
$1M.......this was about 40 years ago......but this was nothing new then, or now................they now have bought up most of the company's that make solar panels, the raw materials that go into their production, battery companys, and they have a piece of most companys that have critical components that go into the production of electric cars...(and hy-brids etc,) these companys still have their original names, but are owned by other companies that are owned by other companies. etc...........at the top of this ownership pyramid is the corp, that has it's board members all appointed by the real owners of big oil........
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