Greg Blencoe finds 20 great hydrogen news items
Click above for a gallery of the FCX Clarity
One of hydrogen vehicles' strongest supporters online is Greg Blencoe. His Hydrogen Discoveries site (and the "For Hydrogen Advocates Only" blog) continuously puts out the message that H2 cars are the right answer for a cleaner transportation future. Blencoe is not alone - the old boss over at Honda, to cite just one example, is pro-hydrogen fuel cell vehicles - but he does want more people on his side. To that end, he recently came up with a list of 20 things that writer Joe Romm "could have written about in his recent Grist blog post instead of the article by Dan Neil in the L.A. Times." (We, too, mentioned Neil's article). The list includes all sorts of pro-hydrogen quotes from automotive CEOs and questions about the viability of EVs, all collected from 2009 and 2008 sources.
If you think that a challenge between Blencoe and Romm, the author of "The Hype About Hydrogen: Fact And Fiction In The Race To Save The Climate," is somehow familiar, you're right. Take a trip down memory lane here and here.
[Source: Hydrogen Discoveries]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
jpm 12:58PM (2/26/2009)
Gorr = Greg Blencoe ?
Reply
jake 2:08PM (2/26/2009)
Possible. In his blog, "For Hydrogen Advocates Only," (a clear "keep out" sign for BEV advocates, lol, luckily he doesn't allow comments or BEV advocates will have a field day there) the reoccurring point is somehow BEVs will always be mini city cars (which seems to be the role two major automakers, Honda and Toyota, & one manager, Bill Reinert, which he quotes repeatedly, think BEVs should serve) and that only Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles can be otherwise.
This of course ignores how the HFCV essentially IS a BEV with a fuel cell. Some limitations of BEVs will apply to HFCVs also (the quote about range plummeting at highway speeds). And for passenger vehicles there isn't any size of vehicle that a HFCV can be that a BEV can't be, it can even be a fairly large delivery truck as Modus shows).
The weird thing is he doesn't quote the major advantage hydrogen has over BEVs and that is quick refueling. He just quotes articles where there is some doubt about BEV viability and automakers puffing up their own hydrogen vehicles. Of course there is never any mention of cost in those articles, which is kind of troubling; I would be less skeptical of hydrogen if there is even a reasonable cost estimate for production vehicles (and I don't mean leasing couple hundred cars with hidden costs). He does make a point about how the max range of a hydrogen vehicle can be roughly twice as high as the best BEVs, which is about the only valid point I felt he made.
jpm 2:32PM (2/26/2009)
You hit on the major points for BEV vs. HFCV. The price is a key factor. Although BEV are still expensive, at least we have an idea what they cost. In all articles/reviews/videos, I've never heard a true price for honda's FCX clarity (0.5 million?). You can't buy it outright, only lease. So they're hiding the price. To me, if it's still astronomically expensive, it's still in experimental stages.
It seems Hydrogen still has two major obstacles- cost of fuel cell, how it makes hydrogen fuel. Making it from natural gas or electricity is foolish because of the drop in efficiency. Making it using the energy output of an intermittent renewable energy source, like wind, would be interesting.
gorr 3:17PM (2/26/2009)
Im not greg blancoe. I advocat hydrogen but the real real thing is that im a buyer bidder, the rest is general opinion talking to entertain myself and other bloggers. I said it 2009 years ago that we will write the bible democratically and it's exactly what we are doing here is that site, we write the bible because the name and wishs(opinion) are written by anybody with a name, a place and especially a date, hour, and minute. So ithis site is the bible because each wish is recorded for eternity with names, date and wishs ( opinions, naysay, insults, questions, inquiries, discoveries, buying bids, contradictions, general talks, etc). The reality is exactly following what we write here. Just checks the economic crisis that the naysayers of free unlimited non-polluting fuel have provoked by naysaying my buying bids.
So i repeat again. First im not interrested to buy this costly fcx because it's not for sale for cash money and it have a hydrogen tank. I WANT A WATER ELECTROLYSER and water mist injection kit sold at wall-mart or lowes or at the nearest tuner shop to power for free my neon and give it a 50% increase in usable horsepower for 500$ to 800$ and installed at that shop. Is that clear and stop goverment studies and subsidies for such a little kits.
Jesus said to not mix business and religion. All politicians are doing religion with taxmoney and they study, energy, cars, pollution, natural ressources, working muscles and sweat, abortion, human genome, etc. They are sick mind studying endlessly human mind like hitler did and always finnish their study by killing the peoples like for example, on the wish of carny, burning the foods or useful matters and prohibit hydrogen while studying hydrogen for themself in zone 51 or in a freind contry like irak or saudi arabia.
jpm 3:58PM (2/26/2009)
you might have to wait a *little* while for that water electrolyzer
Keith 3:48PM (3/05/2009)
Strangely enough, I think I understand what "gorr" is saying. He is not talking about hydrogen as a petroleum replacement AT ALL.
He wants to produce hydrogen on board so he can use hydrogen/water injection as a knock suppressant. If you do build a turbo engine specifically to take advantage of this (i.e. optimum compression ratio, valve timing, injection and spark timing, direct injection, etc...), you could significantly downsize the engine for a given power output, and use less fuel during cruise.
gorr, there are Brown's Gas generators available today, so just go do it! However, there is a more cost-effective solution: Direct injection of ethanol or methanol, only in the quantity needed for knock suppression, accomplishes the same purpose. If you don't have an extremely heavy foot, you can expect only about 5% of your fuel consumption to come from your alcohol tank, so you don't need to worry about causing starvation!
jharlan 1:27PM (2/26/2009)
You don't suppose this guy is grinding his own axe do you?
Reply
Carney 1:51PM (2/26/2009)
One of the biggest promoters of hydrogen in recent years, former Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham, is now a registered paid agent of the Saudi government. As then Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar boasted to the Washington Post in explaining his giving a Jaguar to Colin Powell a week after the latter retired from the Department of State, "If the reputation then builds that the Saudis take care of friends when they leave office, you'll be surprised how much better friends you have who are just coming into office."
Hydrogen is a terrible fuel, and will NEVER, regardless of time and research, be a good idea. Ever. For more see below:
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-hydrogen-hoax
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Noz 11:48PM (2/26/2009)
You really crack me up.
jharlan 2:09PM (2/26/2009)
Does this gentleman own a hydrogen fuel cell car? If not, why not? When will hydrogen fuel cell cars be in the showroom floor (not requiring CH4 to produce the hydrogen which negates any environmental advantage)? When will they be capable of marketing a non polluting hydrogen fuel car for around $20K? Answer these questions honestly and you will establish the merit of the h2 case.
Reply
302YJ 3:06PM (2/26/2009)
Do you own a Battery Electric car? If not, why not? When will Battery Electric cars be in the showroom floor (of a reasonable size (5 passengers+ cargo), and reasonable driving range (near 300 miles)? When will they be capable of marketing of this full use and range Battery Electric Car for around $20K? Answer these questions honestly and you will establish the merit of the h2 case
harlanx6 3:43PM (2/26/2009)
Your questions 302yj are fairly easily answered. We have 2 battery powered cars. Battery powered cars can be purchased now @ around $20K. Better electric cars with increased functionality are coming into production now and it is entirely reasonable to expect fully functional battery powered cars in a myriad of configurations in the next decade. There are a number of cheap and easy conversion kits on the market for your existing cars.
I noticed you couldn't answer any of my questions (which in effect answered all of my questions).
Jeff 8:37PM (2/26/2009)
I've actually never said this before but....
owned!
seriously though, people can and do buy electric vehicles today. It'll be a while before they can do everything a regular car can do with a gas tank, but does that even matter? As is, with even lead acids they can already provide for a huge chunk of daily driving, and with li-ion just coming out now, charging networks actually starting to be laid out as we speak, and interesting progress with fast-charging, within 10 years BEVs will be completely ready for prime time.
FCVs are still prohibitively expensive, the overall energy balance is questionable, and the infrastructural investments are intense. Compare the cost of building a hydrogen fueling station plus fleet of tanker trucks to the cost of installing a dozen 30amp, 220V outlets. Sure the grid needs to be beefed up, but nothing happens overnight. BEVs will be adopted gradually, and if we put this stimulus money to good use, we can upgrade our electrical grid just as gradually.
302YJ 8:54PM (2/26/2009)
“I noticed you couldn't answer any of my questions (which in effect answered all of my questions).”
-Your questions are irrelevant to the motivation behind fuel cell cars. Which is what you were ultimately asking. Weather or not he owns a car, of if you can buy one now, or even what it currently costs is irrelevant.
Battery cars will never be cost effective or technologically feasible to meet the 3 following conditions we have come to know in our current vehicles. 1.) Long usable range at speed. 2.) Realistically sized vehicle that can transport a family. 3.) Have a quick refueling time.
“We have 2 battery powered cars.”
-I applaud your dedication. I would also one-day like to own an electric vehicle. How much did you invest in the vehicle, how big is it, and what is its useful driving range at highway speed?
”Battery powered cars can be purchased now @ around $20K.”
-Really? Show me one real example, that meets the range (300 miles) and size (5 passenger) that I stated in my post for $20K.
“Better electric cars with increased functionality are coming into production now and it is entirely reasonable to expect fully functional battery powered cars in a myriad of configurations in the next decade.”
-Increased functionality, yes. Full functionality compared to current vehicles, no.
“There are a number of cheap and easy conversion kits on the market for your existing cars.”
-Minimum new vehicle purchase price = 15K. Cost of battery pack for even a measily 200 mile range in a small car = $30K (Tesla). Increase that for a full size car with a full range and you probably over $50K in batteries, so $65 K is still way above your $20K target.
Honestly, I want an electric powered vehicle. I don’t care weather its powered by H2, Batteries, or unicorn farts. But I want it to have 1.) long range at real speeds 2.) useful size, and 3.) quick refueling.
The fact remains, it will be very very unlikely for batteries to meet the 3 conditions I stated at an affordable price. Which is why I think Fuel Cells will be the answer for me. And Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, Daimler, Nissan, VW…. to name just a few companies you might have heard of, seem to agree.
But they are probably being paid off by some government conspiracy with big oil holding the man down… or something like that.
harlanx6 9:09PM (2/26/2009)
302YJ:
What a bunch of incoherant crap. What planet are you on? EVs will inherit the road, H2 is a fraud.
Noz 11:54PM (2/26/2009)
Why is H2 a fraud? Just because it's not cost effective today doesn't mean it won't be. There are already new types of storage methods being researched and very promising for H2.
I've honestly never seen such closed minded nonsense in my life. EV's may work in the short-to-medium time line. But for large transports, batteries will not do for now. PERIOD. I'm not going to stoop to Carney's level and never say never because that is plain stupid.
Some of you need to read up on new developments in H2 storage. And clean H2 can be produced from hydraulic sources to name one.
Get real folks..innovation happens. Get used to it.
Chris M 1:33AM (2/27/2009)
302YJ: So, you're looking for a car with long range, family size, and quick refill, that is affordable at $20K. You're right in that EVs don't yet have all of those in one - there are "family size" ones like the RAV4EV that cost more, there are longer range ones like the Tesla that cost more and are too small, and there are $20k and under NEVs that have too short a range and are too small.
But the fact remains that EVs are a lot closer to reaching those goals than H2 vehicles. Your hypothetical "family EV" at $65K is just over 3x the target $20K, but the "family H2 FC vehicle" at $2,000K is 100x over target!
302YJ 11:17AM (2/27/2009)
Harlanx6, or Jharlan
Well, I live on earth. Which is apparently where, when asked to back up your statements with facts, figures, or real examples, it is acceptable to resort to calling the other persons questions incoherent crap. Your reply is the equivalent of “Batterys Rule, Fuel Cells Drool.” Makes your feel better but doesn’t help your argument. I was honestly curious to know how much your EV’s cost you, and how well they perform. And I would love to buy a fully functional one for $20K.
Chris M:
Thank you for admitting what Harlan couldn’t, that Batteries are still too costly to equal the performance (range, and size) of our typical family vehicles for $20K.
Chris, can you please tell me where your ,$2,000K ($2M) dollar figure comes from for fuel cell vehicles? A recently published DOE study shows that from 2002 to 2008, fuel cell cost had dropped from $275/kW to $73/kW, with a $30/kW target to match ICE vehicles. Seems to me they are at just over twice their target price, which is pretty similar to BEV’s.
harlanx6 12:57PM (2/27/2009)
If you guys are talking about this instant in time, electric cars are not quite there yet, but the technological advances make EVs very promising. The idea of burning H2 and emitting only water is tempting, but even proponents admit practical FCVs are a long, long way off. It's the cost. They might as well be the space shuttle. I don't care much for carrying a pressurized tank of highly flammable material in my car, but I have done it with my 3/4/ ford converted to propane, so I know the problems can be solved. EVs have been available for 90 years or so, and E storage technology advancement is in the steep part of the curve. Here is the question. Can FCVs ever be competitive with other alternative energy sources? I just don't think so. Maybe you do, and I hope you are right, but it is the cost that keeps this technology from practicality as a mode of individual transportation. #1 for me is the sun is still free (at least temporarily). I can still charge my EV with power not subject to the whims of market speculator, giant multinational corporations, or government taxation.
Noz 2:18PM (2/27/2009)
Harlan,
Why do you think cost will always be a factor? What makes you think progress in H2 won't reduce costs?
I don't know how old you are...but would you have, in your wildest dreams, believed me if I told you 30 years ago that you'd be holding an Iphone for $300 in your hand that has a screen clearer than most TVs, has GPS, can call, can play games with, send email with (what on earth is that right?).
Come on don't be like Carney.