Elon Musk doesn't love the Chevy Volt
Click above for a high-res gallery of the Tesla Model S
Right now, the Tesla Model S and Chevy Volt are two of the most talked about alternative cars in the world. Both machines are being designed as relatively mainstream vehicles that could theoretically replace gas-guzzling passenger cars in the driveways of thousands of Americans. Still, the eco-friendly vehicles take decidedly different paths to arrive at the same end goal of reducing gasoline usage. The Tesla Model S is an electric vehicle, period. The Chevy Volt, on the other hand, uses a smaller battery pack paired with a gas-burning engine to provide for a longer range before the gas tank needs to be filled. Which is better? Well, that is certainly up for debate.
When asked why Tesla chose not offer a range-extended EV, company CEO Elon Musk had some interesting things to say. According to Musk, the start-up automaker looked into the option of adding a small engine but decided against it for a variety of reasons, mostly surrounding the battery pack. Why?
An important consideration that people without a technical background don't understand is that you can either have a high power or a high energy cell chemistry, but not both. Since the battery pack in a plug in hybrid like the Volt has to generate the same *power* as a much larger battery pack in a pure electric vehicle, it has to use a low energy cell chemistry... The net result is that a 40 mile REV pack is roughly half the size of a 200 mile EV pack.Click here to read the whole conversation over at GM-Volt.com.
Gallery: Tesla Model S: LIVE REVEAL
[Source: GM-Volt.com]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
jharlan 7:55PM (4/06/2009)
Whaaaat?
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CarNut 8:04PM (4/06/2009)
Who cares about the size of the battery pack other than the folks designing them? As it is, since when are Tesla the world leaders in battery technology / packaging / systems engineering for mass-produced production-capable systems? From the customer's standpoint, Volt does most of the frequent driving trips in electric-only mode, charges from any old outlet (not 15kW fancy charger as in case of a Tesla-type vehicle) and goes 350+ miles (As against 200 miles on a mild, sunny day with one passenger in the car for Model S.
I commend Tesla for their perseverance in this really tough business and Musk personally for having the vision, the guts and the focus to get his products out in spite of all of the issues with the technology, market, customers, economy and so on. However, my humble request to Mr. Musk is to recognize that Volt and Model S are optimized around two different sets of criteria and are good for their own application.
And, there is space in this world for all the emerging architectures. Why bad-mouth a competitor? It just doesn't seem secure and statesman-like.
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Noz 2:30AM (4/07/2009)
What do you expect from the guy who started one of the world's worst and scammiest money collecting systems called PAYPAL?
Chris M 2:54AM (4/07/2009)
Well, Tesla Motors does happen to be the only company that is currently mass producing automotive LiIon batteries for sale to customers (others are in the prototype testing stage), and they also currently have the highest energy density and the lowest cost per Kwh stored, so I'd say they know what they are doing.
Noz, PayPal isn't for "money collection", it is designed for convenient payment of small online bills. It may not be perfect, but it works and is cost effective. It is legal and ethical, there is nothing "scammy" about it. So why the gratuitous insult?
meme 12:58PM (4/07/2009)
Several problems.
"Volt does most of the frequent driving trips in electric-only mode, charges from any old outlet (not 15kW fancy charger as in case of a Tesla-type vehicle)"
The Roadster can charge from a normal outlet, too (it just needs an adapter, which Tesla sells). But it *also* can handle very high charging currents. Since both use about the same Wh/mi, they'll both charge at about the same rate from a normal outlet -- it's just that the Roadster can keep charging long after the Volt is full.
"and goes 350+ miles (As against 200 miles on a mild, sunny day with one passenger in the car for Model S."
With the base, 160 mile pack. Not with the 300 mile pack. Telsa uses the same drivecycle for range as the EPA uses for MPG (or in their case, MPGe).
Noz 12:58PM (4/07/2009)
It's evident your level of expectation of customer service and fair business practices is quite lower than a whole hose of people who think otherwise.
Paypal has an extremely high fraud rate...of which Paypal does nothing about. Actually they claim otherwise which is utter bullshit.
Paypal is even involved in a lawsuit for blatantly overcharging, not refunding, delaying funds without reason, etc on and on and on. Since Paypal is not a bank, it does not need to follow any of the regulatory federal banking rules. And it doesn't.
It's humorous to see the way you're an ambulance chaser and come to its rescue.
Someone like Musk doesn't become that rich on a "goodie-two-shoes" way of business. He's a white collar crook and made a fortune on the shady practices of Paypal. Who are you going to defend next? The hedge fund managers and bankers in the mortgage industry? I wouldn't be surprised.
Get your head out of the sand.
Dude 11:25AM (4/07/2009)
"An important consideration that people without a technical background don't understand is that you can either have a high power or a high energy cell chemistry, but not both."
Sure but you can also control power and energy density through your cell design, electrode thickness being one variable for example.
No need to argue with Elon, he does his thing, GM does theirs, it's a big market after all.
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jharlan 8:37PM (4/06/2009)
I'm glad they chose an unbiased source! It's just a minor skirmish in the Electric Car wars.
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P Albats 12:19PM (4/09/2009)
A battery that is being run from 100% charge to close to 0 charge (Tesla) will just not last very long. The best way to run a series hybrid like the Volt is to have the battery never get very low. This will lead to longer battery life and will completely dwarf any gains in not having to maintain a small gas engine.
The Tesla's battery is probably about $20,000. With its use profile, it will probably only last a couple of years (~300 charges). That's about the effective lifetime of any rechargeable battery these days. So in 10 years, the cost of batteries could approach $100,000. In a series hybrid the batteries are quite a bit cheaper and should last quite a bit longer. We're probably talking about something 1/10 of what the Tesla costs would be.
I really think series hybrids are the future, for this and other reasons (the impracticalities of fast charging, lack of range, etc). Pure electrics are probably a dead end.
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BlackbirdHighway 10:11PM (4/06/2009)
"A battery that is being run from 100% charge to close to 0 charge (Tesla) will just not last very long."
Drive 40 miles in the Volt and you have used 100% of the battery capacity. Drive 40 miles in the Tesla Roadster and you have used 18% of the battery capacity.
If I drive 40 miles round trip to work every day, and recharge every night, then the Tesla comes out way ahead. I don't follow at all whatever point you were trying to make.
why not the LS2LS7? 1:10AM (4/07/2009)
Actually, drive 40 miles in the Volt and you will have used 50% of the battery capacity.
Did you ever stop to think that sometimes people drive more than 40 miles? More than 80 miles?
russellgeister 2:00AM (4/07/2009)
hang on your assuming that there will be no new devlopments in battery tech the guys at MIT might dissagree with you on that an a couple of other scientists might also feel the same way.we are only at the begining
Chris M 3:10AM (4/07/2009)
To begin with, the Tesla Roadster is not using "100%" of the charge capacity. Under normal everyday usage, the battery is only charged up to 85% of max capacity and only partially drained, if a long run is expected, it can be charged up to 95% capacity and drained down to about 30%. So, at most, it is using 65% of the capacity,
Tesla did indeed take battery life into consideration, that's why they expect it to last much longer than a laptop battery that is typically charged to 100% and drained to near 0 to get maximum runtime with minimum weight.
But I fail to see how, after several years, a replacement BEV battery would somehow increase in price by 5 times, but a replacement PHEV battery would somehow drop in price. Either they'd both go up in price due to inflation and demand, or they'd both come down in price due to technical improvements.
meme 12:58PM (4/07/2009)
Yes, the Volt will only have used about 50% of its pack in 40 miles. But the Roadster, still only 18%. That's one of the huge advantages of EVs with high range: they go through very few cycles per X miles.
Dave 8:58PM (4/06/2009)
Tesla would have had to outsource IC engine. And it would have been expensive. They don't have the necessary economy of scale.
A larger battery pack adds to the economy of scale for battery purchases.
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Beau 9:08PM (4/06/2009)
And why is this not a problem for Aptera?
Dave 10:21AM (4/07/2009)
"And why is this not a problem for Aptera?"
It will be.
ziv 8:23AM (4/07/2009)
Elon mentions the wasted energy of carrying around the ICE when you are only using the electrical aspect of the car, while touting the 200 mile range of Tesla. The problem with that statement is that a 16 kWh Volt battery pack weighs 400 lbs. The Tesla pack weighs 900 lbs. Does Elon really think that the Volt's ICE weighs enough more than 500 lbs that it would be worth sacrificing the flexibility of ER-EV vs. the range irritation of the Tesla? There will come a day when BEV's are better suited to most people than a ER-EV, but that day probably won't happen within the next 10 years. Most people have 2 to 4 days a month that they need to drive more than 150 miles, sometimes the Tesla will work, but the Volt will always get you where you need to go without sitting 60 minutes in an Exxon station watching your BEV go from 10 miles of range to 60 miles of range.
Just out of curiosity, why haven't Musk's people updated his SpaceX website in 3 months, things not going too well in Florida?
http://www.theirearth.com/index.php/news/tesla-roadster-battery-design
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meme 12:59PM (4/07/2009)
Elon mentions the wasted energy of carrying around the ICE when you are only using the electrical aspect of the car, while touting the 200 mile range of Tesla. The problem with that statement is that a 16 kWh Volt battery pack weighs 400 lbs. The "Tesla pack weighs 900 lbs. Does Elon really think that the Volt's ICE weighs enough more than 500 lbs"
No, but it'll be close. The net result is that the electric range on the volt is a tiny fraction of that on the Roadster. Oh, and not to mention that the Roadster is using 160Wh/kg cells, but 180Wh/kg cells are on the market now.
"that it would be worth sacrificing the flexibility of ER-EV vs. the range irritation of the Tesla?"
To each their own, but 241 miles of EPA range between charging stops is more than enough for me. But I certainly don't want to be burning gasoline after a mere 40, having to have maintenance on a gasoline engine (and all of its requisite moving parts), having to have it cycle on randomly so the gas doesn't get "stale", still having to go to gas stations at random intervals (rather than the predictability of plugging in every night and starting each day with a full charge), and so forth.
"Most people have 2 to 4 days a month that they need to drive more than 150 miles"
Really? I seriously doubt that. And I live in Iowa. Let's see... this year, I drove once, ~250 miles to pick up a furnace, but I had to rent a cargo van for that anyway. Any other long drives?.... Can't think of any. My spouse may have driven to Bloomington at one point, but that would be in the Roadster's range.
"without sitting 60 minutes in an Exxon station watching your BEV go from 10 miles of range to 60 miles of range."
Okay, first off, an Exxon station? Since when are chargers mainly located at gas stations? They're usually places like grocery stores, restaurants, and parks. Secondly, 50 miles of range in an hour of charging? That's only 10kW. The Roadster currently can take almost 20kW. The SAE J1772 standard that pretty much all new charging stations are going to support goes up to 19kW-ish. Tesla is working on a higher power charger standard which should allow a full (241 mile) charge in under an hour.
And this is just the Roadster we're talking about. Other EV makers, like Phoenix and Lightning Car Co, are looking at ~10 minute full charges with rapid charging hardware. And dozens of others are looking at 15 to 30 minutes.
Tohe 9:37PM (4/06/2009)
Tesla has stated numerous times that they are an EV company and will only pursue pure EV. I kind of like the idea of gas free cars duh! So I have no problem giving Tesla my money : )
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