REPORT: Buyer perception holding back U.S. diesel sales
2009 BMW 335d – Click above for high-res gallery
Just the other day, Volkswagen revealed that it's having little trouble selling diesel versions of the Jetta sedan here in the United States. Fellow German automakers like BMW and Mercedes-Benz, however, apparently aren't finding the oil-burning road quite so easy to traverse. A new study by PACE might have some answers as to why. It seems that only 35 percent of those surveyed are willing to consider today's latest clean diesel powerplants, and that figure is made up mostly of expensive luxury car and full-size pickup truck owners. Why? We'd say it's mostly a perception problem.
According to Bryan Krulikowski, the man who authored the PACE study, "While the perceptions of diesel have changed for the better, consideration of clean diesel vehicles is hampered by the high cost of diesel fuel compared to gasoline." Further, "some consumers recall diesels of the past and have not yet experienced or accepted the improved diesel technology available today," he said. As a final nail in the coffin, many new car buyers aren't yet convinced that exhaust aftertreatment systems that rely on urea will be a foolproof way to control emissions.
That's too bad. As we've found in our own tests of modern vehicles like the Jetta TDI and BMW 335d, the diesel engine has completely shed its old rough-idling, smoky and stinky ways in favor of smooth running, plateau-like torque curves and class-leading fuel efficiency.
Gallery: Review: 2009 BMW 335d
[Source: The Detroit Bureau]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Erik 9:49PM (4/15/2009)
There is also a practical problem with getting a diesel car -- it's much harder to find a diesel gas station, especially in urban area.
Reply
Jason 10:05PM (4/15/2009)
And since none of the 2008+ diesels support more than 5% biodiesel (because of the emissions systems), there's one less reason to buy them.
Jason Burroughs
DieselGreen Fuels, Austin TX
Reply
Nixon 10:09PM (4/15/2009)
The reason why BMW is having a hard time selling diesels in this market is that they sent the completely wrong model.
The entry point into the high fuel efficiency market is being in the mid-40's mpg. The 335d missed that mark. So they aren't selling into the target market of folks who WOULD buy a diesel car specifically for their efficiency. They are selling towards a target market of uber-macho, yet alarmingly pragmatic affluent middle-aged men. In other words, German male executives living in Germany. There aren't too many of them here in the US. The diesel market that VW has tapped into aren't those folks.
They should have brought the 123d here instead. It would have stretched the VW TDI market upwards, and tapped into those buyers who demand mid-40's mpg before they will even consider making a purchase.
Reply
nixon 10:12PM (4/15/2009)
If finding diesel pumps were the problem, VW wouldn't be selling TDI's the way they are. It's the car BMW has chosen to sell, not the diesel pumps.
Reply
usbseawolf2000 10:50PM (4/15/2009)
VW Jetta TDI gets lower highway MPG than the Prius and forget about the city MPG. Why would anyone pay for Diesel premium when 87 Oct gas can do better?
Reply
Ralph 11:59PM (4/15/2009)
Why a diesel over a hybrid? Not everyone is comfortable with the high-tech approach of a hybrid such as a Prius, especially if they plan to keep the car for a long time. Diesels engines are typically very robust and there is no expensive battery pack to replace. On top of that the Jetta has a more 'normal' interior with a higher quality/feel than the Prius. There and many other reasons why the Jetta sells well. Just because a vehicle has the highest fuel economy doesn't mean it will be the right car for everyone.
Snowdog 5:45AM (4/16/2009)
I agree no one car is for everyone.
But I think the new Prius will also have lower maintenance costs than the new Diesels as well.
People who argue it is "more complex" ignore the simplification work that Toyota has done, especially with the newest Prius. There are no belts, at all. It has no serpentine accessory belt, timing is done with a chain. There is almost nothing to go wrong in the "Transmission" because the Prius has a series of fixed gears to combine power. No gear switching, no clutches, bands etc... Basically none of the stuff that typically goes wrong with transmissions.
The only expensive maintenance item is the battery. Which is warranted to 8 to 10 years and has been proven extremely robust (cabs put 400 000 kms on one battery without issue).
I would take needing, maybe one $2000 battery in 16 years over 16 years of VW maintaince, 16 years of belts, timing belts, hyper complex catalytic system to treat diesel exhaust etc..
I think the main reason to not consider a Prius is because you can't get a manual transmission. If I was an automatic driver, the Prius would be on my short list. I still figure I will test drive one anyway.
usbseawolf2000 9:24AM (4/16/2009)
Prius also doesn't have a starter or alternator.
Snowdog,
Prius eCVT work fundamentally different from step-gear transmission. Instead of shifting gears, Prius "shifts" power sources because it has two. Since it has a very high torque electric motor and a gas engine, Prius shifts toward electric dominant for "low gear" or direct gas engine to the wheels as "high gear". It comes down to how it split the gas engine power.
As for the manual tranny not being available for Prius -- I consider the Prius manual-automatic. Let me explain.... Prius' transmission shifts power sources and the computer takes care of how power is split or blend so the right amount of torque gets to the wheels. Therefore, it makes it automatic.
However, you can control with the accelerator pedal to use only the battery or the gas engine. It depends on how much you push! Of course there are limitations but you really can control it even on the highway. Google "warp stealth" for more info. The new 2010 Prius will have 4 different driving modes with a touch of buttons. There is more "manual" control for you.
Another dimension of the manual transmission is something new. It is in the braking... regenerative braking to be specific. Remember that power transmission in Prius is two ways now -- not just going out to the wheels but also coming back into the battery. Therefore, regen braking should be considered part of the "transmission".
You can slow down the car only by charging the HV battery or together with the friction brake pads. Again, it is how much you push the brake pedal.
If you know what how Prius works inside-out, Prius can be driven "manually" with driver's control. That makes it so fun to drive!
rg 10:28AM (4/16/2009)
Why is anyone comparing a Jetta to a Prius. Reality check. The Prius is freaking ugly!!!! I'd rather just pollute than drive that thing. It's performance isn't that good either. Yes I've driven one. It's comparable to a Honda Civic at best but with half the looks and none of the fun. The Jetta isn't the worlds hottest car by any stretch of the imagination but it's not bad. It's also got more room than a Prius. It's performance while not race car like, is actually quite nice. It's smooth and quiet and very much against what the stereotypical diesel of 20 years ago was. Diesel fuel economy in them isn't bad at all. It's FAR better than any gasoline engine running on 87 octane could do. At least at the same performance level. I know Prius owners don't understand the word "performance" but most people like it. Consider also that diesel isn't the expensive gasoline right now. It's just above regular. Although it was high, it really shouldn't ever be. It's true that there are fewer diesel pumps out there than gasoline pumps. They aren't that hard to find though. Find a gas station off of a freeway and you'll have one. There are gas stations in urban areas that have diesel pumps too. Just not all of them. That's why VW can still sell diesels. You can still get fuel. Try that with hydrogen, biodiesel, or even an electric charging station. Bio being the only one that is available and even then in very limited places. They are also the only company in America offering a diesel at a price point that most people can afford. Want a Mercedes diesel? $50K+ Then again how many companies are even trying to sell diesel in America? The average American is pretty much limited to VW and trucks. That's also why VW can sell more than others. They try to! If others would bring diesel cars over here, they'd sell. Just keep them affordable.
Bill 10:55AM (4/16/2009)
The premium for a turbodiesel engine (around $2000) is FAR less than the premium you pay for a full petrol-electric hybrid ($7000+) like the Prius.
You can't simply ignore the initial cost premium.
Diesel fuel here now only costs 10% more than 87 octane petrol.
If BMW/Mercedes offered a thrifty 4-cylinder turbodiesel (whiter the 240d?) here in the U.S. buyers would be snapping them up as fast as the VW TDi models.
usbseawolf2000 1:22PM (4/16/2009)
Bill,
Honda decided to go with hybrids because Diesel is too expensive to meet the minimal emission. The cost of hybrids are coming down fast. The question is... can Diesel catch up in cost cutting? It is crucial especially when lower and lower emission being required by the government.
rg,
The last time I checked TDIs are slower than the Prius. There are performance hybrids too. Check out Lexus LS600h or GS450h with V10/V8 power with V6/4 cylinder fuel economy.
PeterG 2:28PM (4/16/2009)
Bill. You make it sound like you pay a lot more for a hybrid than a diesel, when it looks the same to me.
A base Jetta TDI is about $22K and a base Prius is about $22k. In EPA class, the Jetta is a compact and the Prius is a midsize.
For MPG junkies these are the cars to compare. The 2010 Prius is unlikely to be priced higher.
So the choice becomes better MPG on cleaner widely available gas or less mileage on dirtier lesser available diesel. :)
Bill 3:34PM (4/16/2009)
A Prius is a $15,000 car w/o the hybrid system.
Please make apples-to-apples comparisons.
If we could ignore the initial premium we pay for add'l mileage (for turbodiesel, mild hybrid, or full hybrid options) then we could just buy full BEVs with lithium batteries and have a fuel cost a fraction of that of diesel or gasoline.
And small turbodiesel engines like the TDi do NOT require urea.
The premium for diesel fuel was high last year, but has dropped back to only 10% above regular unleaded here.
usbseawolf2000 3:55PM (4/16/2009)
Bill,
Which $15k mid-size car are you comparing the Prius with?
Prius has all of these as STANDARD features:
- Alloy wheels
- 7" LCD touch screen
- Push Button Start
- Power windows
- Driver and front passenger Advanced Airbag System
- Driver and front passenger front seat-mounted side airbags and front and rear side curtain airbags
- Anti-lock Brake System (ABS) with Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD) and Brake Assist
- Traction Control (TRAC)
- Engine immobilizer
- Electronic rear hatch locking system
- High Solar Energy-Absorbing (HSEA) glass
- Intermittent rear window wiper
- Remote keyless entry system with 2-stage unlocking, panic function and remote illuminated entry
- Dual illuminated visor and vanity mirrors
- Driver and front passenger seatbelt warning sensor
usbseawolf2000 4:07PM (4/16/2009)
Bill,
If you take out the HSD from the Prius, you'll need to add these:
- Automatic Transmission ($4,290.91 MSRP)
- Starter ($306.84 MSRP)
- Alternator ($608.80 MSRP)
- Bigger engine, bigger gas tank, bigger brakes, serpentine belt, etc...
PeterG 6:19PM (4/16/2009)
Bill,
So you then must be claiming the Jetta is 20K car and the Prius is 15K car minus their respective Hybrid and Diesel drivetrains.
What exactly makes the Jetta work $5K more in your eyes.
The size? Can't be, according to EPA it is smaller.
The VW Quality? You must be kidding.
You have two MPG champions they both cost the same price. I really don't care if the Prius is $15K with $7K Hybrid premium. That make the Jetta a $15K car with a $2K diesel premium and $5K VW premium. In the end they compete head to head and the Prius gets better MPG with cleaner easier to obtain fuel.
BTW, where can I buy a non hybrid Prius with 6speed manual for even $18K. I would be first in line for that.
Snowdog 8:12PM (4/16/2009)
Seawolf:
I know how the Prius works. I know it doesn't have an alternator/starter etc...
Here is a nice visual for those who don't get how cool the Prius power coupler is.
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
It is really a rugged simple design, a beautiful piece of engineering. Simpler and more reliable than any transmission.
But it isn't a Manual driving experience for someone who enjoys shifting. Heck, even a VW DSG isn't a manual to me. A manual has an H pattern shift and a clutch.
I will Test drive a Prius because I love the engineering and the MPG but it will be the only car I test without a manual. I think it is really cool, but giving up manual seems unlikely at this point.
Bill 9:26PM (4/16/2009)
If you want to pay the premium for a full petrol-electric hybrid that's a matter of personal choice.
That premium is still at least three times what you would for a small turbodiesel option (for the same vehicle).
No doubt HSD is a technically elegant system, but it remains very pricey compared to a conventional powertrain.
usbseawolf2000 10:26PM (4/16/2009)
Bill,
What is your source of information on the cost premium of HSD? Diesel after-treatment exhaust filtering system cost ~$2k already. It requires maintenance and so is the turbo charger. We may disagree on the hybrid premium price but we agree on it's premium feature that comes with it.
High MPG is only one of them. There are a number of more FULL hybrid premium features that most people are not aware of:
- Dead silence with ICE turned off.
- Jet-like ultra smooth acceleration
- Instant power response (36hp from the HV battery)
- Easy highway passing (due to the lack of down-shifting)
- Thermo Bottle instantly raise the engine coolant to room temp (google thermo bottle)
- No need to warm up the car (due to above)
- Drive up the ramp without starting the ICE (in EV mode)
- Move car/parking without starting the ICE
- You can't suicide with the Prius exhaust CO2 (too low to kill)
- In congested cities, Prius exhaust is cleaner than the air it intakes
- Gets higher MPG than a motorcycle
ambush27 3:18AM (4/17/2009)
What new car today for any price doesn't have those features?
With the exception of the glass and touchscreen, the Focus, Fit, Sentra(would have a rear wiper if it were a hatch), Aveo, Yaris, etc all have those features.