Renault gives the green light to build new-generation diesels in France
French manufacturer Renault had been recently attacked in France for excessive delocalization, so it doesn't exactly come as a surprise that the marque is going to build its all-new diesels close to home. Specifically, in Cléon, in the Northwest of France. The new engine, a 1.6-liter, is set to replace the current 1.9 dCi that produces 130 HP, starting in 2011, for both Renault and Nissan cars. Renault claims the new dCi engine produces 30 g/km less CO2 emissions and gets 20 percent better fuel economy while keeping the same torque, following the downsizing trend found all-around Europe. Volkswagen announced a switch from the 1.9-liter TDi to all-new 1.6-liters. PSA already has diesel engines this size, not only at Peugeot and Citroën, but also under MINI and Ford hoods.
[Source: Renault]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
jharlan 3:59PM (4/23/2009)
I want one of these. My corrupt government and their beloved lobbyists are probably doing everything in their power to prevent it. Forgive me for being skeptical, but I can see through this politically correct, self serving, back room governing bunch.
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Snowdog 10:16PM (4/23/2009)
Come on, rants like this will put you in company with Gorr.
Most aren't bringing diesels because the perceived demand is low and emissions hurdle is high.
It doesn't take a conspiracy to do, what common sense dictates.
harlanx6 11:58PM (4/23/2009)
Snowdog, you are just wrong. Diesel technology is advancing very quickly anf we are way behind. Besides that, Gorr can't spell.
Snowdog 7:30AM (4/24/2009)
Where am I wrong. You don't believe that perception of demand (if not actual demand) is low? You don't believe the emissions hurdle is high?
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/03/honda-changes-course-and-switches-from-diesel-back-to-hybrid/
"Honda CEO Takeo Fukui has now revealed that plans for larger diesel engines have also been canceled as a result of the cost of trying to meet new U.S. and Japanese emissions regulations. Honda had hoped that its in-house developed NOx catalytic convertor would allow it to avoid using urea injection. Instead, Fukui said the company will develop a hybrid system suitable for larger vehicles. No timetable has been revealed for introduction."
So clearly the technical hurdle is high. None of these Euro diesels meet emissions.
On the demand side it should be obvious that most people aren't interested:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/15/report-buyer-perception-holding-back-u-s-diesel-sales/
It is just common sense to not work hard at a overcoming hurdles when there is little demand. That doesn't require or indicate a conspiracy against diesel.
The only thing the buying public can do to get more diesels over here is to buy more diesels (VW). Numbers on the board will bring the diesel competition to market.
When the TDIs sell like the Prius, then there will be lots of other diesels. Don't hold your breath.
jharlan 9:36AM (4/24/2009)
You may be right on the perception of demand. As far as the emissions are concerned those hurdles are not going to be a problem. Modern diesels are taking the world by storm with the exception of the US, and possibly Japan. Why? The emissions are not an unsolvable problem. I know you read the blog and it's in there every day. WITH DIESEL YOU CUT OIL USE BY AT LEAST 30%. It is worth the effort to clean up the emissions. We are talking comfortable high performing decent sized cars with the fuel economy of an econo-box. The Europeans have always been able to get more performance out of smaller engines. The people I have talked to are getting mileage in the high 40s out of their Jetta TDIs and the diesel engines are noted for better engine life. What's wrong here? You tell me.
downtoearth 10:18AM (4/24/2009)
jharlan 9:36AM (4/24/2009)
> Modern diesels are taking the world by storm
European diesel sales are coming to a halt. Their key reason for diesel popularity was higher gasoline tax when compared to diesel and non-strict emission norms.
> with the exception of the US, and possibly Japan.
Smarter nations simply don't buy it. Below is why.
> WITH DIESEL YOU CUT OIL USE BY AT LEAST 30%.
Why are you lying to people reading this blog?
European manual Volkswagen Jetta TDI DPF returns hydrocarbon consumption of 143 g CO2/km in European ECE driving cycle.
Equally fast manual gasoline Volkswagen Jetta TSI returns hydrocarbon consumption of 148 g CO2/km. That's 3,4% more. You claimed 30% more.
Source: [1]
European manual Volkswagen Touran TDI DPF returns 159 g CO2/km. A bit faster manual Touran TSI returns 166 g CO2/km. That's 4% more, not 30%.
Source: [2]
And now come the big numbers - Toyota Prius II vs Volkswagen Jetta TDI Clean (?) Diesel. Source: [3].
VW Jetta diesel DSG returns 33 MPG in EPA combined driving. Long term Edmunds test proved the real life Jetta diesel DSG fuel economy is 35.6 MPG.
Meanwhile Toyota Prius III EPA fuel economy is 50 (FIFTY) MPG. Edmunds observed fuel economy of Toyota Prius III along their standard 115 miles fuel economy route is 52.2 MPG.
5-year ownership costs of previous generations of Toyota Prius II and VW Jetta 1.9 TDI diesel look as follows:
Fuel costs:
Toyota Prius II: $5,285
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI: $8,742
Repairs:
Toyota Prius II: $2,291
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI: $3,540 (so much for "reliable" diesel...)
Total costs of ownership (fuel, maintenance, repairs, financing etc.)
Toyota Prius II: $29,669
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI: $34,305
Using EPA energy impact, CO2 emission formulas and real life observed fuel economy of those two cars, driving the Toyota Prius III instead of VW Jetta diesel DSG over 500.000km/310.000 miles (expected lifetime of the battery) allows the owner to:
- burn 4057 gallons of crude oil less
- emit 51 TONNES CO2 less
VW Jetta DSG diesel has EPA air pollution score of 6 out of 10. Previous gen Toyota Prius II score was 8 out of 10. The new model likely improve it or at least remain the same.
> What's wrong here? You tell me.
Well, there was just everything wrong in your post.
[1] http://www.volkswagen.de/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/de3/modelle/jetta/zahlen___fakten/technische_daten.detail.1.4.html
[2] http://www.volkswagen.de/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/de3/modelle/touran/zahlen___fakten/technische_daten.detail.0.1.html
[3] Source for the numbers and calculations is my comment under the nickname MrBratwurst, where everything is carefully referenced, here:
http://autospies.com/news/New-Prius-To-Top-Out-At-32-000-More-Than-A-Base-Lexus-IS-43284/
harlanx6 10:32AM (4/24/2009)
TDIs are selling as fast as they show up, and for full price. How can there be demand when there is nothing on the showroom floor? Diesel emissions technologies are advancing, and the problems are solvable. DIESELS USE AT LEAST 30% LESS OIL! Diesel engine life is superior. It's worth the effort. These are not your father's diesels. What's wrong here? You tell me.
Snowdog 6:58PM (4/24/2009)
Harlan - have you verified that lately.
The local VW dealer with online inventory hasn't been showing that. He is showing TDI and 2.5L base engines in stock. 2.0L Gas Turbos, sold, sold order etc...
I read in other places with stock sitting on the lot as well. If you want one, you will have without much wait.
As far as everything else. Not being your fathers diesel cuts both ways. This is a reset. You can't claim anything about the new engines based on the older different technology engines.
No guarantees on long engine life can be made until the new engines establish a record. Besides why is the even a issue. I don't even know anyone who has had an engine failure ever.
My car is a 1999 that I bought new so I am looking for the replacement and I will consider a TDI, but so far I haven't been impressed by what I have read. I am reading extensively at TDIClub.
What I have read about the new clean diesels so far. Clogged PFs, dead turbos, strange drive-ability issues and these are new cars. MPG is mid 30's overall, into the 40' on pure highway runs. Not really impressed.
I have two dark horses to test: TDI and Prius. I doubt either will make the cut. I imagine I will get another manual transmission, 4cyl small car. But I am willing to give the alternatives a shot.
harlanx6 1:49AM (4/25/2009)
I am a diesel guy who is waiting for a usable affordable electric car to replace it. I am prepared to wait 5 years or more for the EV. When they place 900cc diesel with a Prius type hybrid drive, the mileage will likely be unreachable by any petrol powered vehicle. As it is, a modern diesel gives a usable, roomy, comfortable vehicle the mileage of an econobox. A diesel is my preference and I think the people should decide in the market place which vehicles to buy. We are being denied this choice, and you folks apparently are OK with this. That makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution.
The Germans are not advertising their VW TDIs, yet they sell out at MSRP. That tells me you are wrong. The demand is there. It could be up until now only the Germans have had a technological edge. Do you think Daimler has given up on diesels? Kudos to the Germans.
gorr 4:06PM (4/23/2009)
This is not a 'new' generation diesel as said in this article and by renauld, this is a plain old faschion polluting engine, limp and inneficient with toxic residues that burn mainly in costly catalytics converters.This is just a ' new ' pr campaing with old products. This is a highly unsustainable engine architecture that kill millions of humans and billions of animal species like grass, trees, fishs, birds, etc. It's even starting to invest the genetics line like the biological modification experiments done by barack and chevron.
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andrichrose 5:28PM (4/23/2009)
I still don't want to buy another ICE car !
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jharlan 2:02AM (4/25/2009)
Because there aren't any usable, affordable EVs on the showroom floors and there is not likely to be until competition forces it, we will have to wait a few years before we can retire combustion. In the meantime, I want a clean diesel hybrid. Unfortunately there are none on the showroom floor either, but I would continue to encourage the automakers to keep trying. For most of my vehicle use, I would not have to burn anything, as my power is supplied by a small hydro system and is as green as the grass. Diesel would only have to be used where we would need extended mileage. Diesel is a very concentrated source of stored energy. This may not be everyone's choice, but it is mine.
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