It's no flying Tesla, but Elon Musk wants electric planes
First things first: electric airplanes are nothing new. The French eplane "Electra" flew in 2007 and the "ElectraFlyer C" wowed the crowds at Oshkosh in 2008. But, these one-offs are not for sale and they're certainly not cheap to put together.
Enter Elon Musk. The man at the head of Tesla Motors is familiar with airborne vehicles thanks to his SpaceX venture and, last week, he mentioned he has an idea for an electric plane. Talking at the Charles River Ventures CEO Summit, Musk said that he's thought about a supersonic electric plane since battery technology has advanced to the point where electric aircraft are possible. Possible, but still a long way off, even for Musk. With the new Tesla Model S and other items on his to do list, Musk did admit that, "I have too much to think about."
Gallery: Tesla Model S
[Source: TechCrunch]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Jason 4:28PM (5/06/2009)
Battery powered planes aren't that superior. ICE engines are inefficient in ground vehicles because of constant changes in speed and power requirements. Planes, however, employ constant-speed propellers and don't have traffic to worry about. The cost and weight sacrificed by moving to batteries is nowhere near a neutral trade.
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Jason 4:37PM (5/06/2009)
I didn't even notice he mentioned going supersonic the first time. Elon is a very funny man. I suppose a massive ducted prop might produce enough exit velocity to go supersonic, but the thrust required is enormous. The amount of batteries required is prohibitive.
Mark 4:52PM (5/06/2009)
Elon is great! I think the logical step is to have electric plans as if you look at an Airbus the only moving parts are pretty much just the engines. Batteries are the problem but this is a technical issue which will be overcome without doubt.
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Jason 5:00PM (5/06/2009)
The problems with that comment are staggering.
The number of moving parts on an airplane are vast, to start with.
Secondly, he said supersonic flight. How would you accelerate air to supersonic speeds with electricity? A prop can't go much past M=.7, and ducted fans would be huge. The weight of the necessary electric motors would be far too high. The problem isn't batteries, it's propulsion.
Mitchell 11:27PM (5/06/2009)
@Jason.
Dude, you're such a hater. This is why humans invent things, we have problems and we overcome them. It's people like you who stagnate things and hate on those who move us forward. Instead of saying "can't do this, can't do that" please contribute by maybe giving some advice on what we should overcome. Haters.
Luke 11:25AM (5/07/2009)
Mitchell,
Go directly to engineering school. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
Seriously, we all /want/ this kind of thing to work, but the problems won't be solved without pointing out the issues, discussing them, finding more problems, and solving them. And, yes, lives are often at stake during the engineering process, so it's taken /very/ seriously.
Mitchell 6:56AM (5/09/2009)
@Luke,
Of course I understand there are clear [engineering] obstacles to overcome. I was merely referring to his attitude as a problem. That's the first step before you tackle anything.
augustus 5:08PM (5/13/2009)
No, batteries weigh more than av-gas and provide much less energy. You can't wave a magic wand over batteries and say that they will be better than high octane gas... my AP chemistry days are long gone but i'd wager a good deal of money that NO battery can ever have a higher energy density than gas.
I know the DOD is working on fuel cell UAVs because the fuel cell stack weighs less than gasoline (and you actually need less power to fly a plane than you need to drive a car).
John Rowell 4:58PM (5/06/2009)
Way to go Elon! We need more visionaries like this. Current airplanes have a huge problem with noise and pollution. Making them electric will solve both problems. And it's definitely doable for smaller prop-driven planes. But electric *supersonic*? That's going to be a very tough achievement - I don't see that happening for several decades.
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kert 5:12PM (5/06/2009)
What speaks for electric planes : you have large wing area waiting to be covered with thin-film solar cells, and once you are at your cruising altitude, you are above the clouds, meaning predictable power output.
Free flight during daytime, literally.
Its happening, as well:
http://www.solar-flight.com/news.html
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kert 5:16PM (5/06/2009)
More detailed account:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/04/solar-plane-to/
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downtoearth 5:38PM (5/06/2009)
I'm starting to think Musk does not really want to make an electric anything. He wants to make the brand (succeeded already) and then sell it for amount of cash as huge as possible.
See his biography at Wikipedia. This is exactly how he made money in the past.
Electric plane is obviously utter nonsense. The amount of energy needed for the plain to work/lift and the sheer mass of batteries makes this pointless at the very start. But it delivers further media attention all around the world. Word "Testa" carves in readers' mind further on.
Musk started with a cramped useless horribly pricey Lotus electric transplant - a car no one can actually either use or afford. If he really wanted to make electric cars, he'd have kicked off with transforming ordinary daily driver small cars into battery electric vehicles. But this would never spark press coverage avalanche Tesla is experiencing that is necessary to sell the brand for big bucks in the future.
Then is the Model S. This car is going to compete with Lexus GS/BMW 5er/Audi A6/Mercedes E class/Jaguar XF/Acura TL/Infiniti M/Cadillac STS etc. etc. I'm sorry, but a small startup just CANNOT make a car of this class meeting all the safety, comfort, performance, quality and dependability requirements that are set by huge car making corporations with billions in their reserves and years of hand-on know how just so.
Then is the aspect of range. What's the point of using 300-mile huge expensive battery when you can cover 90% of driving needs with a 5x smaller and cheaper one with some capacity buffer to avoid full discharge and fit a tiny generator for occasional longer commutes?
The whole idea of the Model S seems wrong in its roots, designed to be unaffordable and to trigger massive press buzz only, instead of delivering a useful product.
So the Model S seems to be another brand booster for me, not a real product for people to be happy with all electric propulsion.
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mister nomer 9:13PM (5/06/2009)
downtoearth: "I'm starting to think Musk does not really want to make an electric anything. He wants to make the brand (succeeded already) and then sell it for amount of cash as huge as possible."
Agreed.
jpm 2:16AM (5/07/2009)
Be careful, you may end up eating those words.
mister nomer 1:08PM (5/07/2009)
jpm says "Be careful, you may end up eating those words."
Relax, man. Relax. = ))
This is engineering and business. If that doesn't make for uncertainty I don't know what does. That is, I fully expect to be wrong a certain percentage of the time and you should too.
And, that's OK. Why?
Consider this:
I can be a devoted baseball fan and still really not like A-Rod. It doesn't mean he won't win another MVP because of me.
I can be a devoted basketball fan and still think the Dallas Mavericks would be more successful if Mark Cuban just learned to not be a distraction. This also doesn't mean that they won't win it all this year or the next.
And, I can be a fan of electric vehicles and still be critical of Elon Musk. And, again, this doesn't mean that Tesla won't take the world by storm.
Really, it's OK for people to have their doubts Elon.
= )
Chris M 5:40PM (5/06/2009)
Battery powered pilot carrying planes have flown, though with the current energy density the range and speed is limited, too limited for commercial use. Improvements in battery technology could improve both range (energy density) and speed (power density).
However, even current lithium batteries could find use as a power source for electrical devices on commercial planes, replacing fuel guzzling "auxiliary power units".
With improved energy density, there is the possibility of a commercial "hybrid jet engine", with an electrically driven compressor but no gas turbine, most of the thrust energy would still come from burning fuels but at a much higher efficiency.
A "hybrid jet engine" powered by biofuels and hydrogen fuel cells might even be possible, as it would greatly reduce the volume of H2 fuel needed. Of course, that assumes that fuel cell pricing comes way down to reasonable levels.
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meme 10:41PM (5/06/2009)
Agreed 100%, Chris. I've actually thought of that concept myself a while back. You could eliminate the turbine entirely (and thus a big source of engine drag) and turn the compressor into the rotor of a three-phase motor. Go with a turboprop design (or better, a propfan), and an even higher percent, perhaps even the majority of your power will come from electricity. You've got something that could definitely be a commercial competitor after a decade or two of battery advances.
As for electric power past the sound barrier, it's not as crazy as it sounds -- not for a practical craft, but potentially as a rich kid toy. The Thunderscreech was supposed to be able to hit Mach 1, and that was 1950s tech (they had trouble with the engines, unfortunately). Counter-rotating supersonic scimitar propellers could probably do the trick. The neat thing from Musk's perspective is that you don't need too much energy -- you need a ton of power. Breaking a record only would require, what, 20-30 minutes or so of flight time? You just need to be able to dump power out like it's going out of style. And modern li-ion batteries can definitely do that, and the motors are quite compact, powerful, and lightweight.
It'd cost a fortune, of course. But it should be doable. Not as a practical craft, but again, could be the ultimate toy for the green-minded silicon valley types who like to fly. Sell it with a hangar covered in solar panels and you've got customers lined up down the block.
Noz 10:50PM (5/06/2009)
Large transports are where H2 chemical fuel will take over in the future. As new ways of storing and transporting hydrogen are emerging (some very interesting and promising breakthroughs), using H2 will be the only way to go. Carbon based fuels are hopefully going to be phased out.
As always stated, the combination of electricity and hydrogen is going to be the future.
Chris M 2:34AM (5/07/2009)
Great minds think alike, meme!
Of course, electric prop planes would be more efficient than a hybrid jet, but they would also be slower and less powerful. Still, E-Props could find use in many aviation applications where speed isn't essential, such as short hop runs, private planes, survey planes, etc.
Hybrid jets would be as fast as existing jet planes, but more efficient and quieter, making them an appealing choice for commercial travel.
Hmm, supersonic transport failed economically due to high operating cost and noise. Perhaps with sufficient refinements and really high performance batteries, a hybrid jet SST might be efficient enough to be successful.
lord_jagganath 10:47PM (5/07/2009)
mebbe he's come up with a way to make ion propulsion rockets real cheap and make it work on earth :3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_drive
yes.. i know they work in space only