Vancouver 2009: Hydrogen Fuel Cells automotive panel hearts hydrogen, praises EVs
It's unusual to hear many good things about hydrogen vehicles at a conference dedicated to plug-in vehicles. The reverse cannot be said of the pro-hydrogen folks. At the Hydrogen + Fuel Cells 2009 conference here in Vancouver, BC this week, the main message of yesterday's panel discussion on automotive commercialization was that there should be hydrogen vehicles alongside other alternatives, at least in the near term. The benefits of battery-only and hybrid cars in urban driving conditions were praised, but the agreement was that H2 vehicles provide the best replacement for cars if we want to keep using them the way we do today.
Catherine Dunwoody, executive director of the California Fuel Cell Partnership, opened the panel with a big statement:
With fuel cell vehicles, we are clearly past the stage of hype and on to the hard work or making it happen.
In a sense, she's right. Hydrogen vehicles are available today. But to say we're past they hype? Hmmm. Not so sure about that. Listen to Dunwoody:
Much more, including more audio clips, after the jump.
Gallery: Vancouver Fuel Cell Vehicles
It was a pretty big deal for Larry Burns, VP of research and development of strategic planning for General Motors, to be be in Vancouver on the day that GM filed for bankruptcy. Still, while things were happening for GM in New York, Burns said that he couldn't imagine a more important place for him to be, because, like Churchill, he believes that the only way to get through hell is to keep going. While GM is looking for the "and" solutions, hydrogen vehicles represent the future, and that's what Burns was excited to talk about. "The new General Motors is all about reinventing the automobile and reinventing the automobile industry," he said. (Remember, the last time we talked to Burns, he was unveiling the PUMA)
No matter what happens to GM, Burns said that vehicle miles traveled in the U.S. are expected to keep climbing while emissions laws will keep getting tighter. There is no way that minor improvements in fuel economy numbers with the associated continued reliance on gasoline ICEs will allow America to reach the targets of reduced green house gas emissions to 80 percent of 1990 levels by 2050. The short version of Burns' many graphs: only by using a mix of petroleum alternatives (biofuels, plug-ins, hydrogen from natural gas, hydrogen from biomass) can the targets be reasonably met. Of course, each of these has its own problems. Biomass-to-hydrogen, for example, will have the unknown impact on land and water resources, and Burns made it clear that GM's numbers that show there will be enough of these resources are speculative beyond about 2030.
Burns also gave an update on GM's fuel cell program. The program currently has 115 vehicles deployed and customers have put over 800,000 miles on these vehicles. All told, the vehicles have filled up almost 10,000 times and used 18,000 of H2. The hydrogen service vehicles have over 20,000 miles on them, and GM has trained over 1,400 First Responders to use the vehicles. Also, GM has found that the "vehicles performed very well through two winters." So there's that. You can listen to Burn's talk or download the MP3 here.
Steve Ellis, Honda's fuel cell vehicle sales and marketing manager, has been working on getting fuel cell vehicles to the public for years. He's given his pro-hydrogen spiel many, many times and we've had in-depth conversations with him back in 2006 about hydrogen efficiency, in 2007 on the then-new FCX Clarity, and in 2008 at the AltCar Expo. Let's just state the he knows his stuff.
Ellis said that comparing fuel cell vehicles to today's ICE vehicles is unfair because automakers have had 100+ years to refine and learn about the ICE and the powertrain and to educate people on how to use them. With hydrogen vehicles, not so much, and Ellis said, "We've just started the marathon of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles."
Ellis said the Honda FCX Clarity (above, with Q'orianka Kilcher) is a "generation-skipping" vehicle compared to the original FCX. This is true for the advances made the design and powertrain of the Clarity but also in how Honda is getting these cars out to regular drivers.
Gallery: Honda FCX Clarity Job 1
He showed a picture of a Clarity going through a fairly standard production process, and said Honda made the cars this way to prove that hydrogen vehicles can be commercialized. Honda currently leases these cars to consumers through three California dealerships, another step in the ladder to "normalization." During the first leases, Honda paid close attention to how the three dealerships explained the cars and their unusual features to the customers, but, in general, kept quiet and let them do their job. If Honda's plan to have thousands or tens of thousands of these vehicles out on the roads is to come to fruition, dealerships - not Steve Ellis - need to be out there selling the cars. Currently, Honda's plan calls for 200 cars in Southern California over three years, but the rate will increase when more hydrogen fueling stations are built, he said. Listen to Ellis (or download):
Other speakers on the panel were Taiyo Kawai, from Toyota Motor Corporation, and Andreas Truckenbrodt, CEO of the Automotive Fuel Cell Cooperation Corporation. Kawai spoke on Toyota's goals for fuel cell cost reduction, but he gave some pretty deep in the weeds technical details, so if you're interested, click to listen.
Truckenbrodt talked about Daimler's plans for commercializing fuel cells, including the B-Class F-Cell vehicle that will hit the road later this year. A slide of the path can be seen here. You'll notice that the audio cuts out during Truckenbrodt's presentation. This wasn't meant to slight him, there was just a presentation starting at that time called "Threats to the introduction of fuel cell vehicles and how to deal with them." I couldn't pass that up.
Our travel and lodging for this event were paid for by the Canadian Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Mike!!ekiM 6:02PM (6/03/2009)
What an incredible waste of time.
Gas Hybrids with Plugs are the Fastest, cheapest way to a solution.
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GoodCheer 7:38PM (6/02/2009)
"With fuel cell vehicles, we are clearly past the stage of hype and on to the hard work or making it happen."
Sort-of a self defeating statement... If we haven't yet made it happen, as this comment attests, then really all we have at this time is hype, right?
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Chris M 10:26PM (6/02/2009)
Saying "we're past the stage of hype" on a program and road trip that is all about hype is like saying "I'm not lying" when you're obviously fudging it.
DasBoese 1:35AM (6/03/2009)
"Ellis said that comparing fuel cell vehicles to today's ICE vehicles is unfair because automakers have had 100+ years to refine and learn about the ICE and the powertrain and to educate people on how to use them."
Yeah right. Fuel cells have been researched for almost 50 years now, if they are oh so great that should've been plenty of time.
On the other hand, lithium-ion batteries have been around not nearly as long, yet they took only 10 or 20 years to improve to the point where they're suited for automotive use, and definitely superior to fuel cells.
One sentence I don't quite understand is "Hydrogen vehicles are available today."
Sorry, but what? What hydrogen vehicles are available to the general public today? Where are the fuel cell NEVs, the fuel cell delivery trucks, the $100k fuel cell sports car?
There are some research mules and a sedan which you can lease if you happen to be a hollywood celebrity, and that's it.
On the other hand, there are plenty of EVs for sale. I could go buy one right now, at a price a lot of people can afford. And then there's a sports car which may not be that affordable, but if you get one at least you OWN it.
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Chris M 5:02PM (6/03/2009)
We've never seen even a prototype H2 FC sports car, as fuel cells tend to be low power, unless they dramatically increase the size and cost. I doubt we will ever see a H2 FC sports car. Come to think of it, all the H2FC vehicles have had rather unimpressive acceleration, even with batteries to assist the fuel cell.
gorr 11:41AM (6/03/2009)
Don't listen a single instant these unnecessary office clearks that are paid to sell nothing except headaches, they su&k as much as the battery or big-oil folks. They have all in common a lack of interresting products to sell and put taxmoney in their pockets now to brainwash the market. They live like politicians and scientists by making false theory that nobody understand, even them don't understand nothing. I don't want stupid theories been subsidized by taxmoney, this is the last time i said it. Just put a green car for sale for cashmoney near where i live.
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Serge 5:16PM (6/03/2009)
For once I agree with gorr. Until I see a picture of him posted on Autobloggreen with the Honda Clarity FCX he purchased with his hard-earned cash money, the fuel-cell car is really just "vaporware."
eak 1:29PM (6/03/2009)
You wrote, "It's unusual to hear many good things about hydrogen vehicles at a conference dedicated to plug-in vehicles. The reverse cannot be said of the pro-hydrogen folks."
I don't think plug-in advocates are inherently anti-hydrogen, but they are forced into pointing out the embarrassing facts about hydrogen when FCVs are used to justify delaying BEVs. For example, California's Air Resources Board (CARB) recently weakened its ZEV requirements because FCVs weren't ready. BEVs could have met the ZEV requirement, and so CARB essentially decided to tilt the playing field to favor hydrogen.
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Electricnick 4:04PM (6/03/2009)
It's good to see this crowd working hard with hydrogen but in order to make it past the hype, the cost of manufacturing much be lowered.
The Electricnick.com team.
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Chris M 5:08PM (6/03/2009)
Hmm, at the same convention, another speaker viewed plug-ins as a major threat to H2FC vehicle introduction. Seems there is some disagreement there.
Note that the ones who are saying "we need both H2 fuel cells and Battery vehicles and Hybrids" are the ones from the companies planning to offer all those things. It is the H2 promoters that aren't planning to sell hybrids or plug-ins that are bashing both, and see plug-ins as a major threat to the H2 hype.
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gorr 7:59PM (6/03/2009)
Only cash money sale represent something. It represent a shared dream between 2 persons or more. These zombies living with taxmoney are really eating-up what's left of the economy. It's been years and years of subsidies, about 1 trillions dollars, just to realize that there is no green cars for sale except tesla at 110 000$, LOL.
Repeat after me.. Don't buy anything from regular car compagnies, they work for high financial circles controling taxmoney and they are not interrested in anything except suffocating technology of any kind. Hydrogen make them sick because it cost nothing and don't pollute. 100% of these subsidies are there and collected by zombies only to try to find a way to pollute more and charge more money.. They are proposing death to everyone each days, just listen al gore 5 minutes or bush or barack. They only speak but let zombies like toyota or gm pollute the world and air. This is now happening not only in usa and europe, this is happening everywhere now.
They are more afraid of me then anything else. They spend trillions of dollar trying to argue that gazeous hydrogen gas cannot power for eternity all cars, trucks, airplanes, ships and electrical generation. Even scientology, buddists, catholics, mormons, batists, allahs, ninjas, karate kids, hollywood artists, are limp and tasteless compare to me and their knowledge is 0.1% of what it was like when we were flying and living in big spaceships but someone enter the union workers in the labor force and everything had false to pieces except me.
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