Renault and EDF reach agreement on power line communications for EVs
Kangoo be bop Z.E. - Click above for high-res image gallery
Since launching their collaboration last fall to make electric vehicles mainstream in France, Renault and power company EDF have made significant progress. One of the issues that must be overcome for widespread EV adoption is how to bill drivers for the electricity used to charge their vehicles. The concept of offering free charging to EV drivers is fine for encouraging near term adoption, but isn't a sustainable long term strategy.
At some point, someone has to pay for the electricity used to charge cars and that means the cars on the grid need to be identified. Like automakers and utilities around the world, Renault and EDF have been working on the issue of two-way communications between the vehicle and grid. The EDF-Renault partnership has developed a secure two-way system that will operate over the power-lines that charge the vehicle. Running the communications over the same wires that provide power means that additional wires and terminals won't need to be added to the charging connector. The soon-to-be-standardized SAE J1772 charging connector incorporates a similar power line communications concept, but it's not clear at this point if it is common with what Renault and EDF have agreed to. Gallery: Renault Kangoo be bop Z.E.
[Source: Renault]
Press release June 22, 2009
Renault and EDF strengthen collaboration on zero-emission electric vehicle
Paris, June 22, 2009 - Renault and EDF today announced the strengthening of their collaboration on zero-emission electric vehicles.
Following the agreement signed on October 9, 2008 by Pierre Gadonneix, President and CEO of EDF, and Carlos Ghosn, President and CEO of Renault, the two partners have moved on to a new phase in the development of an electric vehicle by 2011.
EDF and Renault today signed an agreement on a recharge system enabling communication between recharge terminals and electric vehicles, called "power line communication" (PLC). This EDF-developed technology ensures the secure exchange of data between recharge terminal and vehicle, including vehicle identification and billing details. Renault will carry out integration tests of this system with its future vehicles. This is a concrete step forward that will
contribute to the development of the electric vehicle market in France.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Stew 12:03AM (6/23/2009)
This is a solution in search of a problem. Hmmm, instead of a simple method like swiping a credit card just like you do when you fill your tank with gas, lets find the most complicated and costly way of doing something.
There is no reason to identify the vehicle, and I would never charge at a station that wanted to do so. Your car is not identfied when you put gas in it, other than your credit card purchase, why this insistance of identifiying your vehicle to charge it?
Stew
Reply
Chris M 7:31PM (6/22/2009)
Even if they used a credit card for billing, that card reader has to communicate with the credit card service. The power line communications can be used for that purpose, saving money over having to buy data communication lines from the phone company, or the charges involved in wireless data services.
But another advantage of having the ID embedded in the car is convenience - no need to use a credit card, no worries about mislaid or forgotten cards, just plug into any public charging outlet and get a monthly bill.
Snoopy 9:20PM (6/22/2009)
Chris has a point.
Realistically, there aren't any larger privacy issues here than with credit cards or quick swiping RFID technology. The only issue that would come up is what happens if you get incorrectly charged for a non-existent usage.
I don't know if that's possible, but if it can happen with credit cards, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible with this kind of setup.
Sean 10:49PM (6/22/2009)
I think they're also thinking beyond the fueling station paradigm: how many (privately-owned) parking garages would install credit card readers at every self-service charging stall? Since they have to run electrical anyway, might as well use the same lines for billing comms. Allowing anyone with the space to install one or more charging stalls to be able to get paid for it would do two key things: 1) cause more businesses to be interested in deploying them, hastening charge point proliferation and 2) give the owners reason to maintain them in good working order so they can continue to produce revenue. (Remember the stories of many damaged MagneCharge units in California during the EV1/Rav4EV/RangerEV days?)
DasBoese 6:38AM (6/23/2009)
Sean:
They wouldn't have to install a credit card reader at every charging stall, just one for the whole garage, which in many cases is already there anyway for collecting parking fees.
This whole system is akin to having to subscribe with an oil company to be able to refuel at their -and only their- stations. It's just not gonna fly.
Rain 10:25PM (6/22/2009)
Deary,Your slip is showing.
You see this should have been resolved years ago,using power transmission lines as data communication lines instead of the telecoms using taxpayer money to build their exclusive high bandwidth pipelines.
This system makes perfect sense to Me,the power company needs to know who to send the bill to,with one proviso:
The customer receives credit back when the car corrects the current fluctuations found in every system.
One other thing though,the electric car customer should automatically receive lower rates for the reduced transmission and maintenance costs.
Yeah,I know the bloggers for hire are going to raise hell for Me pointing out the way that We all get screwed everyday by the good People of Exron.
Reply
DasBoese 6:22AM (6/23/2009)
This problem is nothing that couldn't be solved with existing and much simpler technology.
Except for vehicle-to-grid applications, communication between the vehicle and the charging terminal is wholly unnecessary. All that this "transmitting a unique ID for billing purposes" is good for is forcing you to register with the power company for payment, which is of course what they're aiming for since it'd give them a monopoly in the market.
Reply
Snoopy 4:02PM (6/25/2009)
Sorry for replying in here, but I figured you're probably getting notices on replies to your original comments.
I like the point you made about being "subscribing" with an oil company.
I can definitely see this essentially forcing people to park at a specific location, because the company they're signed up with has charging stations at that point. Then again, isn't that what they're doing already (Better Place, EDF, etc.)?
The question remains whether you'll be able to switch providers or not if you're unhappy with the service. If yes, then this isn't such a big deal.
In the case of credit card payment systems though, I'm pretty sure that you've got the freedom to charge where you like. Just pull up, plug in and pay when you're done. Heck, they could put the parking fee in the bill so you don't have to pay twice (but obviously have the charging and parking fees marked separately on the receipt so there's more transparency). Also, unless they've got a way of identifying where you're parked and charging, I think they'll need a payment device in every charging unit.
DasBoese 4:41PM (6/26/2009)
If the system is open so you can subscribe with different services, yeah then it wouldn't be that big of an issue. Though I doubt that's where this is headed, and the fact remains that some people (including me and, I think, you) don't want to subscribe to anything at all. That's why I'm no fan of Better Place's model either ;)
On the credit card issue, see my comment in the other thread. I essentially agree with you.
A payment device at every charging point is definitely not needed.
Designing a system that incorporates parking and charging fees without requiring vehicle ID is trivial. Off the top of my head I can easily think of a system that is an extension of the widespread magnet card parking systems and would work as follows:
1.Enter garage, you're given a magnet card. 2.Park your car and plug it in, memorize the number of your parking spot. 4.Go to payment machine, put in card, enter parking spot number, select "Charge". 5.Go shopping. 6.Upon return, put in your magnet card and pay either with cash or credit/debit card, unplug your car, leave.
The only new step for the customer is step 4, the only equipment required at the charging outlet is an electrical meter communicating with the central unit aka payment machine. It's secure, transparent and cost-effective, in some cases you may even be able to retrofit an existing system.
David Martin 8:46AM (6/23/2009)
In Europe one of the big issues when EV cars become widespread would be raising money for the Government.
Fuel and oil taxes pay for much of their welfare states, and the revenue will need to come from somewhere.
I suspect that part of the motivation for this is to prepare for differential charging for electricity for EV use.
Credit cards would work for places outside the house, but not for home charging - that is why they want to make the vehicle identifiable.
I can't see this working either, as householders would probably charge up other batteries and use them to charge their car, even if they lost a lot of efficiency, as the extra tax on car electricity would need to be huge to compensate for lost oil revenues.
In the end they will probably go to a charge based on mileage or annual license tax.
Although the initial change to electric vehicles is easier in countries with high petrol tax, when it starts hitting revenue the problems could be greater than low tax countries like the US.
Reply