EESTor update from ZENN CEO Ian Clifford; demonstrations coming in 2010
EEStor, the company behind the ultralight, ultra-efficient – and ultra secret – EEStor Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) that could change the electric car world, still isn't giving out much information about their product. But Ian Clifford, the CEO of Zenn Motors, is talking.
First, some numbers. The EESU could be a 52kwh pack that provides a 250-mile range and only weigh 280 pounds. ZENN now owns 10.7 percent of EEStor, up from 3.8 percent. Thanks to EEStor's recent permittivity announcements, ZENN has paid EEStor another $700,000.
Now, the intangibles. Clifford told GM-Volt.com that he sees the EESU prototypes "on a regular basis" and is waiting for a production prototype to be delivered by the end of this year. Clifford said that there is a "full production facility" at EEStor's pilot production plant. Possible in-vehicle application of the EESU could be around 600V, which Clifford says, "increases the drive efficiency, it makes the components somewhat smaller, and ultimately less expensive and obviously for mass commercialization." He couldn't say if he's actually seen one of the production EESU's, claiming non-disclosure agreements. He did promise, "absolutely," that demonstrations will take place in 2010. Read more at GM-Volt.com.
If nothing else, this is all good hype maintenance. Thanks to Gordon S. for the tip!
[Source: GM-Volt.com]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
downtoearth 1:39PM (7/21/2009)
Can anyone knowledgeable explain to me why current hybrids don't use capacitors?
Just little capacity (so no EESTor pies in the sky) should be sufficient to perform a hybrid cycle:
- regenerative braking and ICE engine electric assist in stop'n'go traffic
- slow charging to put ICE into higher BSFC efficiency area when cruising and electric assist/burst when high power is demanded (say overtaking) in highway driving
Capacitors should have infinite lifespan and also allow quicker, more powerful discharging so the hybrid could offer better instantaneous performance.
So why no one uses them?
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BillySharps 2:25PM (7/21/2009)
Maybe they're more expensive than batteries. Maybe they have durability issues. Who knows? Batteries are a fairly safe bet right now. Capacitors haven't been used in automotive applications yet. A lot of unknowns there.
BlackbirdHighway 2:32PM (7/21/2009)
Capacitors are higher cost, lower energy storage, and they are hard to work with because the voltage changes dramatically with the state of charge.
Batteries are lower cost, higher energy storage and mostly constant voltage.
EEStors are supposed to be better, but so far they have only existed in PR announcements.
Snowdog 2:39PM (7/21/2009)
The very best Ultra Capacitors only have an energy density about 1/10 of batteries.
So a 80 LB hybrid battery would become an 800 LB Ultra Capacitor pack. And that is for normal hybrids.
A 400LB Volt battery would become a 4000 LB capacitor pack.
downtoearth 4:02PM (7/21/2009)
You're absolutely right and I should have checked the basic facts before asking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities
Capacitors gravimetric and volumetric energy density is shit.
Snowdog 2:49PM (7/21/2009)
If Ian Clifford is not somehow in on the scam and making money off it. I feel really sorry for me. I have been following EEStor since the news first broke. They were once claiming they would be in road cars in 2007.
They have never backed their claims by having the scientific community do verification.
Now we have this "demonstration" in 2010 BS. does that mean they will show a car but still won't let anyone verify the actual capacitor?
Smacks of the Steorn ORBO demonstration.
Scam, scam, scam, scam, .... Scammity scam.
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Snowdog 2:50PM (7/21/2009)
Ugh. Need edit capability. I would be sorry for Ian Clifford if he isn't in on the Scam because his company will likely collapse once this is revealed for the scam that it is.
RAN 3:05PM (7/21/2009)
As much as my right brain wants to believe that Eestor will come through, my left brain just can't dismiss all the broken promises and missed deadlines. As Serge said, the same thing was promised last year, and the year before that. What are they gonna say if they miss delivering a production model *this* year????? And who will still be hanging around to hear the same swill *next* year?
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Dolphyn 3:46PM (7/21/2009)
Newly released interview (actually mostly monologue) with Dick Weir of EEStor:
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5577862/14646725
http://www.theeestory.com/topics/2512
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sac 3:00AM (7/22/2009)
Thanks Dolphyn.
Very interesting interview. Either Dick Weir is an unbelievably good actor or these guys are gonna take over the world.
Everybody here should listen to the interview (its almost 40 minutes). The interviewer is a bit annoying and doesn't seem to know much about anything but Mr. Weir just runs with it and is a good talker.
Electricnick 4:24PM (7/21/2009)
We really wonder what good it does: "Wait a little more and you'll be surprised!" from companies like these. It would be a good time to show something even if the result isn't up to snuff.
The Electricnick.com team.
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Yanquetino 4:34PM (7/21/2009)
I suggested this link at eestory.com about "The Baloney Detection Kit":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUB4j0n2UDU
Some of the devout "faithful" screamed heresy --claiming that the "Kit" just doesn't apply when it comes to a belief in EEStor. Oh... okay.
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Chris M 7:16PM (7/21/2009)
Loved that "baloney detection kit", it should be required viewing for all school kids. Good defense against frauds.
About a decade ago, there was someone pestering the Usenet group alt.energy.homepower with posts about his idea for an improved capacitor to power cars, it was to use tiny grooves on the plates to increase surface area, thus increase storage. Efforts to educate him on why it wouldn't work well enough fell on deaf ears, he'd wait a week then post the same drivel all over again. The name he gave to his unworkable wonder capacitor is the same he used as a pseudonym for posting:
EEstor.
Don't know if there is a connection, but I'm mighty suspicious.
Monroe 2:08AM (7/22/2009)
To Chris M,
EEStor's approach is completely different. This guy you mention seems to do a very naive thing: Take the formula for capacitance in a parallel plate system and do tricks to increase the area which would increase the capacitance. However the formula is an approximation that assumes you have two flat parallel planes, and the "grooves" trick would screw up the geometry and the same formula wouldn't be applicable. In fact it would only change the capacitance by a small amount. In contrast EEStor is developing a new dielectric that lies between the plates to increase capacitance.
David Martin 4:45PM (7/21/2009)
Downtoearth said:
'Can anyone knowledgeable explain to me why current hybrids don't use capacitors?'
They are being looked at by a number of companies. One of the comments here that perhaps they don't last very long is wide of the mark, as they are good for a million charge/discharge cycles.
They really come into their own on mild hybrids for the acceleration and to cope with the high charge rates needed to accept the power from regenerative braking.
Here is Peugeot and Valeo pursuing this strategy:
http://wardsauto.com/ar/supercapacitors_mild_hybrids_090702/
And here adapted for a pure EV:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/batteryultracapacitor-system-for-small-electric-vehicles.html#more
And here for a successor to the Volt, to make it really nippy:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/gm-exploring-su.html
For some battery chemistries which don't like deep discharge it can help prevent this.
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PHEVadvocate 7:15PM (7/21/2009)
Please read post number 4 of the following link.
http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/09/10/eestors-ultracapacit.html
Sounds like EESTOR goofed to me, what is even more damming is that they have not published anything to dispute this yet.
If you can shoot holes in this post please post a responce.
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ray 8:29PM (7/21/2009)
Hey guys,
Here is an article that says eestor varified by a third party.
hhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/15/store-excess-electricityas been
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Chris M 6:36PM (7/23/2009)
Corrected web link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/15/store-excess-electricity
A bit misleading, the "third party verification" wasn't a test of the proposed ultracapacitor itself, it was verification of the purity and permittivity of one component, Barium Titanate, that EEStor plans to use. We still have no evidence whatsoever that a capacitor matching those claims is even possible.
ray 8:32PM (7/21/2009)
Try it again. Third party verification of eestor.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/15/store-excess-electricity
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Yanquetino 9:38PM (7/21/2009)
If you haven't seen it, here is a great demo of how an EESU works. ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIb91pwUmB8
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