Japanese oil, gas companies will tackle hydrogen fueling infrastructure
Toyota Highlander FCV - Click above for high-res image gallery
A consortium of 13 Japanese oil and gas companies are joining forces in an effort to commercialize technologies enabling hydrogen vehicles to be conveniently refueled by 2015. Coincidentally (or not), that date goes hand-in-hand with Toyota's target for selling hydrogen vehicles on the retail level.
According to the Nikkei in Japan (via Trading Markets), unnamed automakers are considering joining the group, which expects to start field testing dozens of hydrogen refueling stations all across Japan in short order. It's hoped that the oil companies can generate the hydrogen and the gas companies can use their existing pipelines and stations to transport the hydrogen at a cost comparable to gasoline.
Considering that the great promise of hydrogen is its lack of tailpipe emissions, we can only hope the oil and gas companies find a way to generate the hydrogen in an environmentally friendly manner, even if it's not necessarily the most profitable solution. Think that's likely?
Gallery: LA 2007: Toyota Highlander Fuel Cell
[Source: Trading Markets via Fuel Cell Today]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
augustus 3:03PM (8/05/2009)
"Considering that the great promise of hydrogen is its lack of tailpipe emissions, we can only hope the oil and gas companies find a way to generate the hydrogen in an environmentally friendly manner, even if it's not necessarily the most profitable solution. Think that's likely?"
In contrast to the night time enviro-power that will recharge plug ins? I sure hope the wind always blows at night.
Perhaps the enviro method of making hydrogen comes from using excess capacity during the day and night to split water or using a nano-catalyst to mimic photosynthesis, like this one: http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html
The grass is not greener on the other side if it is all plug ins.
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polo 7:27PM (8/05/2009)
You think all the cities and towns that run on wind and solar power shut down when its not sunny or windy outside? Are you 12 years old?
EVs charging at night actually act as a backbone to the grid as they can feed energy back into to meet demand. This will likely be done during the day when their is demand, not at night when their is excess capacity.
meme 3:12PM (8/05/2009)
Hmm, gee, how would the oil and gas companies ever possibly make hydrogen? Gee, this is a toughie... Surely they won't do it through hydrocarbon reformation, right? Oil and gas companies never do that!
Augustus: Nice straw man, but as has been pointed out to you over and over, EVs are 2-4 times more efficient than hydrogen, so even if your hydrogen comes from electrolysis, it's still going to be 2-4 times dirtier. And EVs mostly charging at night is a *good thing*, as the grid has surplus capacity at night.
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augustus 3:25PM (8/05/2009)
So how is it green to be charging EVs at night using the surplus (coal) power supply? Unless you are talking the surplus nuclear power where is the green savings?
meme 4:06PM (8/05/2009)
Are you kidding? Okay, first off: this issue has been studied over and over again, and if you had been here for any length of time, you should already have been made well aware of the fact that even on our current grid, EVs are more efficient than gas cars because of the greater efficiency of power plants than ICEs. Secondly, picture our current primary sources of electricity, in order:
Coal
Nuclear
Natural gas
Hydro
Wind
Oil
Tell me, at night, which ones do you think get cut off? They cut off the ones that cost the most to run. Which is, in order:
Oil
Natural gas
Coal
Nuclear
Hydro and wind
Hydro and wind, having almost no cost to operate, are the *last* types of power cut off. So at night, you tend to be operating on cleaner power. To top it off, you also get to make use of spinning standby. And by increasing the nighttime demand, you can move some generators into higher efficiency operation (many generators are inefficient at low output)
LizR 6:48PM (8/05/2009)
This notion that EVs are more efficient than FCVs is just bunk. It's a myth that Joe Romm and Plug-in American perpetuate with no proof. Every bit of research (DOE, CARB, EuCar, JARI, Los Alamos National Labs, MIT) concludes that EVs and FCVs are equally efficient tank to wheels. The well to tank varies, with the national average of grid electricity being about 18% less efficient than H2 from natural gas. When H2 and electricity are made from renewables, both are considered 100% efficient. (None of the studies consider transmission loss of electricity, which can be as little as 10% or as much as 50%).
FCVs and EVs are equally as efficient, equally as clean and have equal challenges in coming to market in mass production.
Alan 5:21AM (8/06/2009)
@LizR
Oh do shut up, don't say "This notion that EVs are more efficient than FCVs is just bunk" and then go on to indicate that EVs *ARE* more efficient well to wheel. What has tank to wheel efficiency go to do with anything at all? Typical water muddying there!
If hydrogen can be marketted and used as a transportation fuel that's fine, but do not state that it will be as efficient as an EV, that's an outright lie.
meme 11:30AM (8/06/2009)
Nonsense, LizR. With generated power as the starting point, transmission in the US average 92.8% efficient. Chargers are 92-93% efficient (depending on charging rate). Li-ion battery packs are 96-99% efficient (excluding cobalt). And from there, you have the same losses for both types of vehicles. That's 84% efficiency during those legs. For the equivalent for H2, you have ~50-80% electrolysis efficiency (the higher efficiency methods tend to be more expensive), 80-90% transport efficiency, ~90% filling efficiency, and ~40-55% PEMFC efficiency (in practice; in the lab you can get it higher, but that's at low loads with pre-compressed oxygen as the oxidizer instead of high loads and uncompressed air). Going with the median on all of those, that's 24% efficiency during those same legs. And you don't have to take my word on it; essentially every peer-reviewed study on the subject has come to the same conclusion.
Hydrogen is, and always will be, way lossier than batteries.
McHoffa 3:24PM (8/05/2009)
I personally think we need both to succeed, together.... EV for daily drivers like most people, Hydrogen for everything else - the family vehicle to drive to the lake on the weekends, across country on vacation, delivery people (not semis), etc.. people that can easily put over 150 miles on their car in one trip...
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augustus 3:29PM (8/05/2009)
Isn't it just easier to demonize people who drive more than 100 miles in a day?
(joke)
Serge 3:32PM (8/05/2009)
There is a big difference between "an effort to commercialize technologies" and "joint research with an aim to commercialise technologies."
With that said, I agree that energy companies and not the public should lead (and pay for) the hydrogen infrastructure.
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Avro 4:08PM (8/05/2009)
If you are concerned as to the source of your electricity charging your EV, why not pay the extra cent per kWh to ensure all your electricity comes from an environmentally friendly source? this will encourage growth in that sector and you'll have peace of mind.
One of the many advantage of EVs is that it leaves it to the consumer whether or not to use and encourage green power generation technologies.
Hydrogen does not.
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Serge 5:30PM (8/05/2009)
Excellent point, Avro.
jake 4:32PM (8/05/2009)
Japan is a perfect country for EVs, it's small enough that probably most people drive less than 100 miles.
However, for the same reason, it does make it easier to launch a hydrogen fueling infrastructure.
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Sean C 5:08PM (8/05/2009)
I don't live in Japan.
I don't care if they wan't to trust the oil companies to continue to be the energy providers for their transportation needs.
I also don't care if they wan't to waste their money on a more expensive, less efficient infrastructure solution.
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djstruyk 5:46PM (8/05/2009)
You should care because this is a global economy and where money is spent in other nations has an impact on who can afford to market in the US and ultimately how money is spent here. Furthermore, if Japanese automotive companies are spending all of there R&D dollars on Hydrogen then that means slower advancement in Electric and other alternative methods of transportation. On a final note this is a global climate system and the less polution created on the Earth the better for us all.
hans_solo 5:57PM (8/05/2009)
Hydrogen or Battery swapping? No thanks!!! I rather choose freedom of oil powers. They made enough trillions of $$$
I have a different dream,
electricity from varies huge desert solar plants directly in my Alfa Volta*.
Day and Night, no coal or nuke power needed thanks to Flüssigsalzspeicher (liquid salt storage [no idea if its correct translated])
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/07/28/desert-sun-acciona-wants-in-on-desertec-solar-project/
*Pure fictional, but it's almost certain that an Italian automaker will use the name Alessandro Volta one day for an EV.
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gorr 6:02PM (8/05/2009)
I said to produce the hydrogen into the car or truck or ship or airplane or lawnmower or motorcycle or ufo while driving with a small water electrolyzer with water recirculation, to not tax the car, to not programm it with gps limitations and pre-programmed limitations based on dates and geographical limitations. You should keep a high value for you used car for a long time.
Some cars can be fitted with inflatable hydrogen balloun over the car and we just have to inflate this to fly into the air escaping painful traffic. Transport trucks can aslo leave the ground with inflatable hydrogen balloun cutting cost for transport. I said earlier that the possiblities of hydrogen gas are limitless and non-polluting.
Remember the name of the first compagny that will offer you for cash a good hydrogen product and stick with this compagny thereafter for a long time, forgot the deeply depressed subsidized, regulated incompetants that believe only in your pain and don't offer good products because they think that it's better for them to suffocate you like gm, toyota, mercedes, volkwagen, honda, caterpillar, bridgg and stratton, ford, chrysler, etc.
Since 2 years these compagnies don't exist anymore for real, they sold themself to speculators and have left there jobs and transferred it to tax traders. They don't have any green tech at all to sell to consumers, so they collect tax instead.
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XYZ 7:55PM (8/05/2009)
Gorr,
Geee, I don't know if I should lough or cry whenever I read your posts??? Maybe, you can tell me. Man, you are such an idiot.
Mark 7:07PM (8/05/2009)
"Japanese oil, gas companies will tackle hydrogen fueling infrastructure"
Gee..WHAT A SHOCK that oil and gas companies would want hydrogen instead of electric vehicles.
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