Is retro-fitting older vehicles the solution to accelerating electrification?
Converted Saturn SC1 EV - click above for high-res image gallery
Is the mass retrofitting of older vehicles the solution to a rapid transformation to an electrified vehicle fleet? Felix Kramer, founder of Cal Cars, certainly thinks so. The problem lies in the fact that there are nearly 250 million vehicles on the road in the U.S. with a median age of about 10 years. When auto sales were at their peak of 16-17 million units a year in the recent past, it would have taken 20 years to replace most of the fleet. With sales not expected to return to those levels for the foreseeable future and current sales at about 10 million, it will take even longer.
Kramer is proposing that widespread retrofitted should be promoting as a means speeding up the transformation. Even with the slow rate that the vehicle fleet is turned over, the plug in conversion will be even slower because of the low volumes of those vehicles in the first years of availability. Tens of millions of vehicles could be converted much more quickly than new vehicles will be sold. Unfortunately, there are a lot of potential safety and reliability issues with such conversions. They can also be expensive. On the plus side, re-using existing vehicles takes much of the manufacturing energy out of the equation. It's certainly not a simple calculation.
Gallery: Bob Gurk's electric Saturn
[Source: Gas2.org]
Photos Copyright ©2008 Sam Abuelsamid / Weblogs, Inc.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tim 5:38PM (8/11/2009)
Which produces more CO2 and is more economical;
a) chopping up, melting down, and recycling old cars in to new cars.
b) Replacing the engine, transmission, exhaust in existing cars with batteries and motors?
Last time I checked, recycling steel (and everything else) was better than starting from scratch, but is still VERY energy intensive and puts out gobs of pollution.
Logic says that retro-fitting older vehicles is one of the solutions to accelerating electrification. But with 250 million vehicles on the road in the U.S., it's just not the ONLY solution.
The market hates a vacuum and always rush in to fill the void IF ALLOWED TO)
Reply
Wanted 5:39PM (8/11/2009)
Because, who needs trunk space?
Reply
Will Sterling 5:46PM (8/11/2009)
A very select few would be willing to drive a conversion like this Saturn.
Reply
Richard 5:49PM (8/11/2009)
My only issue is that, for the hobbyist, it remains prohibitively expensive. The last time I priced out a (to my mind) reasonable refit to a daily driver (AC power, regen, 75-80 mile range, highway capable, VW Bus or similar in size) I very quickly topped the $15,000 mark on parts alone (over 1/3 that just on the batteries).
I realize that smaller, city-street-only, more-limited-range vehicles are relatively less expensive, but then you end up with something that's still pretty damn expensive and doesn't actually get me where I need to be with my desired level of gear.
Shame, really. Still, these things will get better with time, I'm sure.
Reply
Mike Z 5:58PM (8/11/2009)
This has all the marks of an uneconomical, unproductive make-work waste of time.
First off, no one would want to invest $15k to convert a perfectly good new car into an EV; Especially seeing that for most sedans $15k will purchase a lifetime supply of gasoline at current prices. (And yes, I know that's current prices, but if you had $15k cash you could just as much lock in the current price via investing in oil companies).
The ones that would be converted would be old cars that are not worth that much more, then the question is who wants to drop $15k into an old car maybe work $5k?
Then there is the question of the car not being DESIGNED for an EV. That means custom built systems (A/C, Power Steering, Break pump, vacuum pump) to change over to electric drive. That also means having to fit all the new parts into a car not optimized for EV drive components. Basically you would have to design all new systems for each and every make/model of car you intend to convert.
More to the point, all you're doing is retaining the metal body and discarding basically all the mechanical systems in the conversion (which represent almost all the embodies energy). Why not go a little further and start with a clean sheet design and a purpose built body/frame?
Besides, recycling steel is generally done in carbon arc furnaces that use electric. If we have clean electric, why bother caring about embodied energy?
Reply
CaramelZappa 6:22PM (8/11/2009)
"First off, no one would want to invest $15k to convert a perfectly good new car into an EV"
A perfectly good new car? No, probably not. Most ev conversions are started from older cars with engine problems. Checking out craigslist easily provides more than a few cars that are going for almost nothing because the engine is siezed. If you look at evalbum.com hardly any of the converted vehicles are "new" cars.
Mike Z 6:32PM (8/11/2009)
CaramelZappa:
Exactly my point:
People buy old cars with bad engines and convert them to EV as a hobby. I presume a fun hobby at that, and most importantly most hobbies are not about getting an economic return on your investment they are about learning and having fun.
But, how many people can justify economically investing $15,000 to do the conversion if were not a hobby? As a pure investment, it will never pay back and it makes poor sense to invest a lot of money into a car that's practically worthless.
Jack Rickard 12:43PM (8/12/2009)
Er. Mike. Some of us would. I've converted a "brand new" replica of a 1957 Porsche 356 Speedster to electric drive and I'm just thrilled with it. It was expensive. The car cost $23k and the parts cost about $28k. But it will now do 100 miles on a charge, it costs about a $1.50 to charge it. The batteries should last me 10 years.
It goes 95 miles per hour. I can do 0-60 in about 7.5 seconds now. The battery weight, combined with some brake upgrades and some coil over shocks, do indeed make this car drive differently. It is much smoother, and has a much lower center of gravity. Is a result it handles VERY differently from a real Porsche 356 - MUCH BETTER!
The components will last for years. No oil. No gas. No dirt. And it is an absolute pleasure to drive.
Who would do this to a new car? I would. We have already started conversion of a brand spanking new 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman to electric drive. We think we'll hit 125 miles on a charge with this one.
In truth, conversions are going to be the biggest part of true plug-in electric cars for many years. The Volt isn't one. It has a gasoline engine and generator in it. And for the foreseeable future, it has to.
Why? Well it's pretty simple. We all know about batteries included. So when the American public goes to the showroom, their first question will be "How much do the batteries cost to replace."
The only answer that will result in a sale is "We cover the cost of the batteries. We warranty the batteries for 150,000 miles or 7 years." If you don't have that answer, you won't sell a car. Period.
The problem with Lithium Ion batteries is that if you overdischarge them, you kill them. Permanently. There are 10,000 people a day who run out of gas NOW with gasoline vehicles that feature a 400 mile "range." I have. Everybody has.
With a gasoline car, if you run out of gas, no harm, no foul. You put more in. And you drive away.
In an electric car, if you run out of gas, you have just destroyed a $20,000 battery pack. Not good. The "range extender" panders to your "range anxiety" but it has little to do with range. It allows the car manufacturer to automatically start the motor and charge the batteries when they get to a certain low charge level. This PREVENTS you from running out of "gas" in the batteries, and allows you to get home. If you actually run out of gasoline, the car doesn't move, and doesn't bleed the batteries any further. But if you add gas, you can then drive home.
This is the REALITY behind hybrids. And it is not an evil plot. If you were manufacturing cars, you would face EXACTLY the same problem. You can't sell a car without dealing with the battery issue. And you can't deal with the battery issue without controlling the charge cycle.
The batteries are here NOW and they make a GREAT car. It is an entirely different driving experience and you are NOT a victim of oil companies.
A hybrid actually inherits the complexities of BOTH systems and is a poor solution for me. It is quite true that you can put a saddle on a cow and it is just as equally true that you can milk a mare. But it's a funny way to travel to breakfast and you'll likely annoy both the cow and the mare.
If you want a TRUE plug-in EV, for the foreseeable future you are just going to have to build one yourself.
We're publishing videos of the process as we do the 2009 Mini Cooper. http://evtv.me/mini.html I'm sure most motorists will NOT want to do their own, but many will. And as people become aware of what these cars can do, I think it will turn into a real grass roots movement.
Ultimately, there is little point in converting ALL of our cars to electric. If we replaced half the miles driven, the local dry cleaner /grocery miles, gasoline would be $0.75 per gallon for your trip to the lake or cross country in your Escalade. And yes, the air would be heroically cleaner.
Jack Rickard
http://evtv.me
CaramelZappa 6:14PM (8/11/2009)
I'm currently restoring and converting an old 69' Datsun Roadster 1600 into electric. It's certainly more of a hobbiest thing, not the most practical solution in the world.
I doubt converting old cars has any real chance at becoming widespread. Most people just aren't up to the task and want a more practical, affordable solution. However, there are some upsides, like giving the ability to breathe new life into a car with a seized engine.
Reply
Zeph 6:43PM (8/11/2009)
I like the idea, as many cars have a flair and personality and, where the weather permits it by allowing them not to rust into nothing, would have an extended life as electrics. I could see myself converting my current car to full electric down the road, if there was a kit for around 10 000 euros. Even the ICE could find new life, converted into home or business ethanol generators for backup power on ecofriendly solar and wind powered homes, for when the weather dosen't quite allow enough electricity to be produced.
I think it's an elegant and pratical solution that would allow for many small businesses to thrive on these conversions and adaptations. It might not make financial sense, but the financial system is a den of thieves and vipers anyway, and if people just think about the money all we will end up doing is destroying the planet anyway, as we're doing now.
I'd do it instead of buying a new car down the line, were the option to have a professional company convert the car available. Of course, battery technology and electric motors would have to evolve so I'd have similar range and power without loss of interior space. But I could see it happening.
Another possibility would be fitting an MYT ICE engine running on biofuels to replace a conventional engine, should they ever materialise on the market and the technology both works and avoids falling into patent limbo.
Reply
Mark Kiernan 7:33PM (8/11/2009)
If I could get a decent car for 100 dollars and then convert it for 5000 then I would consider it. But a conversion (I know a guy who converted from petrol to LPG and had terrible problems) never works out as good as a factory built model.
Reply
DasBoese 7:37PM (8/11/2009)
No, for a variety of reasons.
For one, the cost of a properly done conversion is significant, and considering that older cars often lack in safety and comfort, makes no economic sense except for hobbyists.
Secondly, a conversion EV will almost certainly always be inferior to a purpose-built one, in efficiency and safety. It's just not possible to utilize all of the unique constructive opportunities that EV drivetrains offer in a chassis optimized for an ICE drivetrain, unless you essentially reconstruct the whole bodyshell.
As a hobby, it should be promoted. The small industry that has built up to cater to those hobbyists will continue expanding, no doubt, but it's just not a suitable solution for the large scale. It might, however, help mobilize more start-ups to build dedicated EVs.
Reply
Tulse 7:42PM (8/11/2009)
"Tens of millions of vehicles could be converted much more quickly than new vehicles will be sold."
I seriously doubt this. What is the infrastructure necessary to individually convert all the vast number of different models that are still on the road? How many separate garages/mechanics are necessary in each locale? How many different conversion kits have to be produced to fit all the various models? Compared to the centralized, industrialized, automated production of cars, conversion sounds to me like it would be MUCH more cumbersome and inefficient.
Reply
Thunderbuck 8:38PM (8/11/2009)
This isn't a completely nutso idea, but...
I'd say the best approach might be to analyze the current North American used-car fleet, and find some of the most widespread models still on the road. Out of the top five, say, figure out which two would make the best candidates.
Then, conduct some proper production engineering and figure out the best packaging, both for overall performance and for ease of conversion.
THAT might work...
Reply
Matt 9:35PM (8/11/2009)
What I'd really like to see is something like the about-to-be-deceased Ford Ranger switched over to an EV model. All the dies and tooling are probably long since paid for and depreciated to 0. There used to be a Ford Ranger EV and hobbyists have made conversions, so there's a body of knowledge already available. It's not a great vehicle but it does have most of the modern safety features that a 20+ year old retofit wouldn't have. It certainly has the space for batteries, and body-on-frame trucks are ideal for the extra weight having already been designed for heavier duty hauling. This is the type of "retrofit" that has some hope of success at producing vehicles in any quantity. You'd have a ready supply of new rolling chassis, all of the same model, and not used vehicles of various makes, models, and conditions. You'd also have a vehicle that is more suited to EV conversion than most anything else (front engine, RWD, body on frame, semi heavy-duty, and super simple).
Something like this, especially with some government backing, would be the most likely scenario that I've seen to get an affordable EV to market, albeit a basic and dowdy one. Unfortunately, it's not going to be a halo car like a Volt or Tesla, and introducing a "new" vehicle that's an externally invisible update to the old model goes against everything the auto industry is about (constantly updating models and convincing customers to dump their "inferior" older models).
What we need is some T. Boone Pickens type to buy out the Ranger production, plant, rights, etc from Ford at its end of life and produce it.
Reply
john 11:33PM (8/11/2009)
already happening.
http://www.rapidelectricvehicles.com
Reply
Bob 11:37PM (8/11/2009)
I think it makes sense for someone with the right vehicle, and access to the technology and parts at a reasonable cost. Problem then becomes the batteries and when it comes time to recycle or dispose of them... And you better know the technology yourself, because not many local mechanics are going to take the time to acquaint themselves with your conversion. This can be done for a lot less than $15K according to the sites I've seen on the web.
Reply
SumideXE 12:13AM (8/12/2009)
Yeah converting to electric is still expensive, but the price will go down in time. This whole thing is still in the pioneer stages.
I think an early 90's saturn coupe is an appropriate choice - it's kind of a homage to the EV1 as they were of the same vintage & with similar looks.
The only car i think that looks more similar to the EV1 is the geo storm.
I'd rock a geo storm with an EV1 body kit runnin' on lithium if i had the cash.
I'm just that kind of nerd.
compare:
isuzu impulse / geo storm:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Geo-Storm.jpg/800px-Geo-Storm.jpg
ev1:
http://www.carsareevil.com/images/gm_ev1.jpg
Reply
why not the LS2LS7? 3:27AM (8/12/2009)
Conversions have poor range. People passed on the opportunity to even lease EV1s with 100 mile range, I don't think 60 mile range conversions (as is typical) will make a dent in the marketplace.
Reply
Woodenbee 9:36AM (8/12/2009)
I know your being deliberately irritating, but as you know people lined up for blocks to keep their EV1's, protested and begged to pay cash money to keep them, and also most Americans don't drive more that 40miles a day, soooooooo 60 mile range is plenty for most second vehicles, or with a little thought it could be your main vehicle, then you could go rent a Tesla for longer trips