Where Toyota is today on pure electrics, plug-in hybrids and the like
Toyota Prius PHEV prototype - Click above for high-res image gallery
We've heard from people who know that, behind the scenes, Toyota is moving quickly on the path to bring plug-in hybrid vehicles to market. Publicly, though, the company is taking a slow, methodical and sometimes skeptical approach to cars with cords. After all, they just spent years teaching us that we don't need to plug in the Prius.
The best wrap-up of where the company is today can be found over at HybridCars, where our friend Bradley Berman, the site's editor, has put together a interview with Doug Coleman, Toyota's U.S.-based Prius product manager, that looks at where ToMoCo sees its own plug-in technology in comparison with the competition. The short version: Toyota is happy where it is, and will bring plug-ins to market when it deems customer demand is present. Put another way, as Jana Hartline, Toyota's environmental communication manager, did: "Our outlook has never been to be the first to market. We want to be the best to market." Read the whole thing.
Gallery: EVS23: PHEV Prius prototype
[Source: HybridCars]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
GregBlencoe 12:47PM (8/22/2009)
With all due respect, if Toyota were this negative on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, the headline would have been MUCH different on this blog post. One day people will wake up and realize how biased they are.
Here is a key question:
What good does it do to support a technology that is not viable with mainstream customers? What is your goal in supporting it? What problem does it solve? The only result is that people will be reliant on oil for that much longer.
Toyota is just telling the truth that plug-in battery vehicles simply are not ready despite what many people in the blogosphere desperately want.
Here are two great excerpts from the HybridCars article:
"'One of the key challenges with electric vehicles is obviously battery cost,' Hartline said. 'That is, bringing a vehicle to market that provides the utility that people need, including durability and range, at a price point that will work for the customer.'"
"Toyota is not yet ready to make the same bet on plug-ins. 'If we had a technology that was ready today—if we had the battery at a performance and quality and durability and price point that we could put into a car and mass manufacture it for some market and both sustain our business and provide value to the customer—we’d do it,' said Coleman. 'We’re trying to get to that point in the future.'"
Toyota knows the real solution for mainstream customers is hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
Check out the following post...
7 reasons to love Toyota hydrogen fuel cell vehicles
1. 431-mile real-world driving range with Toyota FCHV-adv (mid-size SUV) hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (See YouTube video below)
2. 68.3 real-world miles per kilogram fuel economy with Toyota FCHV-adv (See YouTube video below)
3. Ability to operate in temperatures as low as minus 22 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 30 degrees Celsius)
4. Irv Miller, TMS group vice president, environmental and public affairs made the following comment on August 6th:
“In 2015, our plan is to bring to market a reliable and durable fuel cell vehicle with exceptional fuel economy and zero emissions, at an affordable price.”
5. Masatami Takimoto, a Toyota executive vice president and board member, made the following comment in January at the North American International Auto Show:
“By 2015, we will have a full-fledged commercialization effort.”
6. The Toyota FCHV-adv (Highlander) hydrogen fuel cell vehicle has the same trunk and passenger space as the gasoline-powered version.
Click on the following link to see a picture of the trunk in the Toyota FCHV-adv hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.
7. Here is a comment made by Justin Ward, advanced powertrain program manager-Toyota Technical Center, in a Ward’s Automotive article (subscription required) that was published on July 16th:
“We have some confidence the vehicle released around 2015 is going to have costs that are going to be shocking for most of the people in the industry. They are going to be very surprised we were able to achieve such an impressive cost reduction.”
http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/7-reasons-to-love-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles/
Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
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PopSmith 1:31PM (8/22/2009)
Greg, nearly everyone is bias in one forum or another. This is AutoBLOGgreen and, as such, it's editors can (and will) be somewhat biased to one forum of "Green" technology over another. While I think it is interesting you said:
"One day people will wake up and realize how biased they are."
Looking at your post people don't have to realize how biased you are, or what your bias is as you even have "CEO of Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc." in your signature. You are blatantly biased towards Hydrogen use in cars.
While I hate picking apart people's posts I'll answer a couple of your questions:
What good does it do to support a technology that is not viable with mainstream customers?
BEVs are an excellent choice for most Americans (and definitely others throughout the world). While I am not sure how many miles the average person travels per day let us say it's 80 miles, or double the number GM came up with in deciding the Volt's battery size. This means that battery pack with a 160 mile range would be four times the "average" range traveled by Americans in one day. They simply plug in the car at the end of the day and it is totally recharged by morning with no need to worry about "range anxiety" when you have a car that can go 4x the distance needed to get to and from work on a charge.
What is your goal in supporting it?
This answer would vary based what EV manufacturer you are talking to.
What problem does it solve?
Having EVs as the main transportation takes the polluting away from transportation and places it in how the power is generated. Since coal plant numbers are getting fewer and fewer the generation of electricity is getting cleaner. By placing the "dirty" part of transportation on electricity generation it makes it easier to clean up pollution caused by transportation because when coal plants are replaced by wind, hydro etc. it makes for extremely clean electricity generation.
The only result is that people will be reliant on oil for that much longer:
Only a small amount of electricity is generated by burning oil. Most EVs only use oil (if I remember correctly) in their transmissions, if companies design the transmission like some Toyota and Audi vehicles, which contain a "lifetime" oil that never needs changing until 100,000 miles or more, they won't ever need to change it and oil consumption is further reduced. The electric motors only have one moving part and do not need oil to be lubricated.
JasonN 3:30PM (8/22/2009)
Beat it GregBlencoe!
"Toyota is just telling the truth that plug-in battery vehicles simply are not ready despite what many people in the blogosphere desperately want."
BullSh*t, EV's are here now and they were here 15 years ago. Take your Hydrogen bias and lies and shove it where the oil comes from! I already have my BYD shares, do you?
Chris M 4:34PM (8/22/2009)
"One day people will wake up and realize how biased they are." and "What good does it do to support a technology that is not viable with mainstream customers?" Look in the mirror, Blencoe! H2 vehicles are nowhere near viable for mainstream consumers, considering the severe lack of refueling options and very high cost, compared to gassers and hybrids and even compared to PHEVs and BEVs. There are very few customers for that Toyota FCHV-adv, considering the $7,500 per month lease and the severely limited number of public H2 refueling places. The market for plug-in conversions for the Prius is far greater, as the cost is much less and there are far more public recharging oulets.
BEVs are far closer to "mainstream viability". There are several times more freeway capable BEVs on the road than the entire fleet of prototype H2 vehicles. Tesla Motors has within 2 years delivered more BEVs to paying customers than the number of H2 vehicles made by all manufacturers in the past decade - none of which has ever been sold!
Toyota knows that, which is why they make a vague promise of "H2FCVs in 2015" only because the US DOE has targeted that year and some of the other auto companies have also made vague promises of "H2FCVs in 2015". That's 6 years away, plenty of time to change their minds and back out. Meanwhile, Toyota has already promised a BEV in just 2 years, and will probably launch other plug-in hybrids to meet the competition that is coming well before 2015.
By 2015, PHEVs and BEVs will be too common and too cheap and have far more "refueling options, so H2 vehicles won't be able to compete.
Alan 5:45PM (8/22/2009)
Greg Blencoe can't be reasoned with, but it's probably still worth trashing his posts for the benefit of new readers.
Throwback 2:16PM (8/22/2009)
Range is only one problem with EVs, cost is the main problem. Even if you assume the "average" American drives 40 miles day, and there is an EV available that goes 100 miles per day, what is the incentive for someone to buy the EV? Is it cheaper? Sure it may be cheaper to run over 5 years, but if you can't afford the initial purchase price who cares what you MAY save over 5 years. I read many people on here suggest that folks could just rent a gas car for long trips, as if that makes sense. I spend more money buying an EV with less capabilities, then I rent a car when I want to visit family and friends? That makes no financial sense. It seems to me Toyota is looking at this rationally, and I would suggest they know their customers better than anyone.
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Alan 5:48PM (8/22/2009)
Standard economics will solve that - it's almost certain now that EVs will replace ICEs as the main mode of personal transportation, but you know it could be something else, guess we'll just have to wait and see!
Nick P. 2:37PM (8/22/2009)
I've said it before and I'll repeat it again: I believe that Toyota has a Volt & LEAF competitor in the works, but they announce it too soon, consumers will stop buying the Prius. So, unlike GM and Nissan who have no viable hybrid product, they have nothing to gain from announcing anything right now.
They are just taking care of business.
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GregBlencoe 2:57PM (8/22/2009)
I forgot to mention this in my first comment...
In an extensive study by the Idaho National Laboratory of 115 plug-in Priuses across the U.S., the vehicles averaged less than 50 miles per gallon which is only slightly better than a standard Toyota Prius.
How many mainstream consumers are going to pay up to $10,000 or more for the larger batteries for this type of performance?
Here is the story that was posted on AutoBlog on June 15, 2009:
REPORT: 115 Plug-in Toyota Prius test cars fail to crack 50 mpg average in year-long test
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/15/report-115-plug-in-toyota-prius-test-cars-fail-to-crack-50-mpg/
Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
Reply
Chris M 3:54PM (8/22/2009)
And that "test" consisted of commuting from Idaho Falls to the INEL site, a commute that is far longer than the average daily drive, and much longer than the "EV range" of the converted Priuses used, about 10 miles. To top it off, they frequently forgot to plug in. No wonder the results were less than spectacular. Results from those with shorter commutes and more frequent plugging in were much better.
It will be interesting to see what the results will be when they test the GM Volt, which has 4x greater EV range.
Mark Kiernan 4:09PM (8/22/2009)
Greg,
On day soon there will be the possibility that I could connect my EV to a solar panel and get free fuel, this is something everyone could have at home (depending on climate of course), why do you think this is a bad thing?
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Chris M 4:37PM (8/22/2009)
Because it wouldn't require the hydrogen piping and equipment his company hopes to sell!
Rick 4:38PM (8/22/2009)
Range Anxiety is a problem - even though your electric car may have twice the range of what you think you need.
An ev is the equivalent of a gas car with a 2 gallon gas tank and it's like that tank can only be filled through an almost totally plugged soda straw.
When you've been driving a little while and you know you have something less than 1 gallon left (which will be most of the time) you will experience range anxiety.
And sooner rather than later, you'll find out your "fuel" gauge doesn't quite work right.
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XYZ 9:29PM (8/22/2009)
7 reasons to hate Toyota hydrogen fuel cell vehicles
1. 431-mile real-world driving range with Toyota FCHV-adv (mid-size SUV) hydrogen fuel cell vehicle gets you where? To your nearest power point to recharge - not to a hydrogen refuel station as there is no station available.
2. 68.3 real-world miles per kilogram fuel economy with Toyota FCHV-adv but who cares as I plug in my car into any power point I find and I start every morning with a full tank of "fuel".
3. Ability to operate in temperatures as low as minus 22 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 30 degrees Celsius)... but what do I know? I don't even know that 22 degrees Fahrenheit is NOT minus 30 degrees Celsius.
4. And I don't even give a @#$% what Irv Miller, TMS group vice president, environmental and public affairs commented on August 6th as they only tell us what they want us to hear.
5. The same with Masatami Takimoto, a Toyota executive vice president and board member, who made a comment in January. Yeah, and my grandma also said dinner was ready.
6. The Toyota FCHV-adv (Highlander) hydrogen fuel cell vehicle has the same trunk and passenger space as the gasoline-powered version. AND IS AS CHEAP AS THIS VERSION or maybe not? For the rest of the money I just buy an EV bus and have as much trunk space as I like.
7. Here is another comment made by (someone) Justin Ward, advanced powertrain program manager-Toyota Technical Center. But do we really need advanced powertrains in EV's? Maybe not. So another job on the line.
Just go away, Blencoe.
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BlackbirdHighway 11:38PM (8/22/2009)
One reason to love my electric car:
It was available this year, I bought it and I'm driving it.
The FCHV is not available, but might become available, maybe, if everything goes just right, in 20-something-something. So, as someone said, if I had waited for that I would "be reliant on oil for that much longer".
Even if you did get one, you can't hop in the FCHV and drive 431 miles because there won't be any hydrogen filling stations 431 miles away. But you will most likely find a lot of outlets along way.
Wasn't it Toyota, along with Tokyo University that recently announced they figured out how to improve battery energy density by a factor of 10? That would effectively kill both gasoline and hydrogen fuels.
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barry mason 12:47AM (8/24/2009)
Where are the hybrid Sienna's? If they are in Japan, why not here too?
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