Energy Secretary Steven Chu plans to ensure hydrogen funds invested wisely
Honda FCX Clarity - Click above for high-res image gallery
United States Energy Secretary Steven Chu doesn't think that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are the best technology to funnel research and development funds into. Still, Chu doesn't plan to continue fighting with the lawmakers in Congress that voted to reinstate funding into hydrogen projects that he had previously canceled. Says the Energy Secretary:
So, while it seems Chu still feels that battery-powered electric cars are the most likely way to curb our petroleum use for transportation purposes, hydrogen will continue to get funding from the U.S. government in some capacity.We will do the best we can to make sure the funds are invested wisely... We asked ourselves, 'Is it likely in the next 10 or 15, 20 years that we will convert to a hydrogen car economy?' The answer, we felt, was 'no.' Fuel cells is actually the more mature, and so we will try to do our best to say, 'OK, if the goal is to try and get them into vehicles, let's design a program to actually try and do that as best we can,' rather than saying, 'I disagree with them.'
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[Source: Green Car Advisor]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tim 9:14AM (9/09/2009)
This is BS! (now I’m angry... rant to follow)
Progressives scream about how much they hate Wall Street, Banks and Giant Corporations while they give them $Trillions in taxpayer money. Who are progressives really working for… the workers or the corporations? Hypocrites!
Obama is now begging Congress to raise the debt ceiling AGAIN!
http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/story/senate-must-raise-debt-ceiling-above-12t/
Obama and the Democrat-Socialists have almost DOUBLED the national debt in just the last few months and almost ALL of that spending benefited a few giant corporations and Wall Street firms. The NeoCon Republican traitors HELPED!
Keynesianism-Marxism central planning is CRAZY!
Now these “progressives” want a Public Healthcare "Option" in order to drive the private health insurance companies out of business so there will be NO competition against a socialist medical system which MUST ultimately ration care to control costs. Since when did Socialism become progressive? Since the beginning of the Progressive movement.
What about frivolous lawsuits? What about killing monopoly by allowing us to buy insurance across state lines? What about Healthcare Savings Accounts?
What about leaving me alone and getting your dirty progressive hand out of my pants!!!!!
So how is Central Planning doing?
The post office is bankrupt
Medicare is bankrupt
Medicaid is bankrupt
Socialist Insecurity is bankrupt
Those States that redistribute the most are bankrupt.
The “faith and credit” in the Fiat unFederal noReserve Note is Collapsing worldwide.
The NeoCon military empire and Progressive socialist spending are bankrupting the US.
And now they want to run medicine??????
Meanwhile, Chu is giving MORE of OUR money to Hydrogen research??????
Obama’s Change = MORE of the SAME!!!
Whatever happened to the 9th, 10th & 14th Amendments? Do the words “necessary and proper” in section 8, clause 18 of the Constitution negate any and all limitations on federal power over We, the Forgotten Taxpaying Slaves?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessary-and-proper_clause
Progressive-Fascist Socialists think we are just cows to be milked to feed the giant corporation/gov’t baby. Progressives think we have NO rights that gov’t didn’t give to us. Warning: Whoever gives can also take away! Liberty, freedom, rights?
Chu… STOP SQUANDERING OUR MONEY AND GIVE BACK OUR CONSTITUTION!!!!
(Obama is the JOKER creating chaos so the criminal progressives can take over the asylum)
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dust 9:35AM (9/09/2009)
i'm probably feeding a blog-spamming troll here but jeez tim, did you even read the article? your rant is so full of disparate cut-and-pasted bizarro conspiracy nonsense that i won't even bother addressing most of it.
however you seem to have read the headline and simply stopped there. secretary chu does not feel that hydrogen is the best avenue to spend research money. however given its support in congress he is choosing to direct that hydrogen money toward the most promising projects rather than throwing it away on anything that calls itself hydrogen technology. frankly i find the idea that the government is again funding scientific research refreshing. a lot of impressive things have come out of that kind of thing. you know, like the internet.
the worst thing to ever happen to the web has been the proliferation of uninformed libertarians. (the sane ones i have no problem with, it's just that there are way too many anti-everything crazy ones ranting from their battle caves)
Tim 9:40AM (9/09/2009)
Yes, I read the article.
He doesn't believe but he's giving it OUR money anyway... Politics.... SAME... NO CHANGE!
Yes, Chu wants to waste our money responsibly. How “Politically Correct”.
(nutball)
PabloKoh 11:20AM (9/09/2009)
U.S. Unfunded Liabilities: $59,025,816,000,000 or just $219,000 per taxpayer
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
meme 12:41PM (9/09/2009)
No, you clearly didn't read the article. Chu is being forced by congress to spend money on hydrogen. He tried to cut the funding, congress reinstated it, and he's decided to stop trying to fight them, since they control the purse strings.
jpm 12:47PM (9/09/2009)
Why do people feel the need to "write" comments that are twice as long as the original article? Get your own website.
And to the original article... damn that sucks. We finally get a smart scientist in the gov't and congress won't back him. Oh wait, most members of congress are/were:
1. won a popularity contest election
2. are faith based rather than science based
3. heavily influenced by corporations
Tim 1:05PM (9/09/2009)
Meme,
If you don’t appose it, you’re guilty too. It’s like watching someone being raped in an alley and doing nothing to stop it.
PLUS Congress does NOT control the "purse strings". THAT IS A LIE!!!
Congress WOULD control the purse strings if our "representatives" honored their oath to the Constitution to coin money and regulate its value. Instead Congress allows a private company to counterfeit fiat “money” and control its value so Congress can spend without limit. The NeoCons like the US Empire and the Democrat-Socialists buy votes from the non-productive and non-invested.
We, the People pay the TAX in inflated prices!! Yes, inflation is a TAX on everyone!
The private un-Federal no-Reserve non-Bank and Wall Street controls the purse strings by controlling the amount of Federal Reserve IOU NOTHING Notes that are in circulation, the availability of credit to both the Gov't and to We, the People and the Interest Rates TO both the Treasury and to the other banks.
The Fed creates fiat IOU Notes (credit) out of thin air and charges the Treasury interest! Hell, the US Treasury even has to print the Fed’s paper!
(at least Chu is NOT one of the 35 some odd unelected Comrade Obama "czars")
http://www.obamasczars.com/The_Czars.html
What the HELL is going on????
Spec 1:46PM (9/09/2009)
Did you forget to take your Thorazine again?
meme 1:59PM (9/09/2009)
"Congress WOULD control the purse strings if our "representatives" honored their oath to the Constitution to coin money and regulate its value"
So, what, you're damning him for supporting the constitution?
He tried to stop them. He failed. That's the end of it. He's not God; he's the Secretary of Energy.
Ian 5:51PM (9/09/2009)
"What the HELL is going on????"
Epic fail on your part to understand how govermnet works, that's what.
Now go and do some teabaggin' while you hunt for the Kenyan birth certificate.
Tim 6:49PM (9/09/2009)
Why do Progressives like Spec and Ian always resort to insults rather than debate the facts?
Answer:
There is no logical defense for progressive redistribution tyranny (NeoCon-fascist or Democrat-Socialist) because it is always wrong to steal even if you give that plunder away as social or corporate charity. Redistribution is WRONG no matter how good it makes the progressive thieves feel.
Robin Hood stole from the Gov’t and gave BACK to the people while he tyranny of the State! Progressives are NOT defending a just position. They are in fact defending corporate gov’t of, by and for the elite oligarchy with concentrated power.
Instead of debating FACTS, Progressives call their opponents names while throwing themselves on the ground kicking & screaming. This is acting like little spoiled children who are still dependant on their Big Brother for everything.
Progressives need to grow up, get off the taxpayer back and buy their OWN damn diapers for a change! That goes for ALL statists and redistributionist emotional retards!
Hear that Obama? How about you Chu? If you can't honor your oath of office... QUIT!
skierpage 10:58PM (9/09/2009)
Stay on topic or STFU. Your first 12 paragraphs are nothing to do with this post!
"Meanwhile, Chu is giving MORE of OUR money to Hydrogen research??????"
No, congress overrode him. Pay attention.
Tim 9:42AM (9/10/2009)
skierpage,
The topic was about Chu giving OUR tax money to Giant Corporations for H2 Research. If Chu did not like it, he should QUIT!
My entire post is on topic. And ONLY a Progressive with nothing important to say would ever tell someone to STFU while adding NOTHING to the conversation. Go back to your corner and stick you thumb back in your mouth while the adults talk. (children)
Throwback 9:25AM (9/09/2009)
Nice rant Tim, except it is the elected members of congress who authorized the funding for H2. An appointed Cabinet Secretary cannot change the appropriation. If people are upset, they can vote them out next year. We only get the representation we deserve.
Reply
Tim 10:44AM (9/09/2009)
Throwback; (I'm glad you enjoyed my rant... it felt good to me too )
You said: "We only get the representation we deserve."
Well, maybe. The truth is that we only get the representation that the party chairs, the mainstream media and the Wall Street firms that own them decide we should have. Those who disagree with their party or the media elite are crucified. These 2 parties have set up rules so that 3rd parties are irrelevant and the major media is controlled by Progressive-Socialists who are funded by and support Wall Street! Don’t believe me, where did all the bailout money that the Progressives in Congress voted for go?
However, If Congress and the President honored their oath of office and were limited by the Constitution and if the Supreme Court APPLIED law instead of INTERPRETING law it wouldn’t matter.
However;
As long as Progressives believe that everything they want is “necessary and proper” and that there are NO Constitutional limits on Federal Power over the people.
and
As long as the Fed continues to counterfeit the currency and loan it to the Treasury (at interest) who gives it to Congress to “invests” in giant Wall Street firms who “support” the campaigns of politicians and judicial nominees who support the Fed.
"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws." - Mayer Amschel Rothschild
No ticket? No laundered currency and no allowance!
And
As long as We, the People are dumbed-down by gov’t schools which would rather teach Keynesian voodoo socialist economics instead of free market natural law economics and history….
We’ll get the representation that Progressives, NeoCons & Giant Wall Street firms think we deserve.
How do we fix this? Stop being lazy and EDUCATE YOURSELF!!
Read: United States Constitution, Federalist Papers, Bastiat: The Law, The Jefferson Letters, Anti-Federalist Papers, Articles of Confederation, Declaration of Independence, Thomas Paine's Common Sense, Washington's Farewell Address, Patrick Henry: "Give Me Liberty" Speech , Adam Smith: The Wealth of Nations , John Adams: Thoughts on Government , John Locke: Second Treatise of Civil Government.
You can find them here: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/
Study: Austrian Free Market Economics! http://mises.org/
(drooling progressive robots can just go play with their cars)
(Yes, my comment is applicable to this topic because I’m replying to Throwbacks comment and the post was about Chu’s redistributionist-socialist “investment” policy.)
XYZ 6:23PM (9/09/2009)
Tim, are you related to Gorr?
gorr 10:17AM (9/09/2009)
I said to stop any subsidies toward everything, let the consumers decide, it's them that drive own and operate the industrialized car. Stop any expenditure toward anyone not selling for cash a green car like let's say, honda, toyota, gm, ford, chrysler, volk, mercedes, nissan, peugeot, mitshubischi, porsche, winnabago, boeing, ktm, bombardier, kawasaki, suzuki, harley davidson, ferrari, bentley, jaguard, buggatti, etc. These cars can be converted to green for 500$ to 2 000$ approx and nobody is offering them while casching money from consumers, tax-payers including depts put on taxpayer until years 2010 till let say year 3000 and more if we observe how it grow and how fast it's handle.
So we can observe that the more you pay tax, the more they hires personnals to tax you even more, like let's say subsidies to study how to commercialize a green car without pollution and no imported crude oil while negating since 1908 domestic, unlimited, non-polluting natural gas.
Reply
Rick 11:28AM (9/09/2009)
so you want an end of gov interference in consumer choice. What about consumer choice to pollute? Do you raise fuel tax to pay for that choice or do you just let them do it?
Kafantaris 10:30AM (9/09/2009)
It is nice to know that Dr. Steven Chu wants to make sure that the $100 million allocated for hydrogen is spent wisely. Presumably he has the same standard for the 2.5 billion allocated for battery research.
Yet the best battery around might very well be a hydrogen storage tank itself, as electricity can be converted into hydrogen and stored there. This hydrogen can then be used as raw fuel to supplement fossil fuels, or it can be converted back to electricity. And if some of that $100 is spent to make low pressure storage tanks a reality (University of Delaware just got funding to look further into charred chicken feather microtubes) hydrogen storage may outpace lithium-ion batteries no matter how many billions are spend on them. Indeed, business folks seem to have figured that much out and are putting their money on hydrogen.
In any event, here is a comment submitted elsewhere on the Mazda RX-8 Hydrogen RE that might have some relevance here:
Back in 1977 Mazda learned that hydrogen was better than gasoline to power its rotary engine because the flame front of hydrogen is much faster and can reach across the long and flat combustion chamber of the rotary.
Moreover, forty years ago NASA scientist learned that even small amounts of hydrogen added to gasoline improves mileage because it allows the leaning out of the fuel mixture:
"Lean-mixture-ratio combustion in internal-combustion engines has the potential of producing low emissions and higher thermal efficiency for several reasons. First, excess oxygen in the charge further oxidizes unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. Second, excess oxygen lowers the peak combustion temperatures, which inhibits the formation of oxides of nitrogen. Third, the lower combustion temperatures increase the mixture specific heat ratio by decreasing the net dissociation losses. Fourth, as the specific heat ratio increases, the cycle thermal efficiency also increases, which gives the potential for better fuel economy. NASA Technical Note, May 1977, "Emissions and Total Energy Consumption of a Multicylinder Piston Engine Running on Gasoline and a Hydrogen-Gasoline Mixture"
Much of this was confirmed again last month by Changwei Ji and Shuofeng Wang at the Beijing University of Technology. They outfitted a 4 cylinder engine with hydrogen injectors, as well as with gasoline injectors, and found that adding hydrogen allowed them to cut down the gasoline used during idle and low-load, which happens to be where car and truck engines spent half their lives:
"The test results showed that, with the increase of hydrogen enrichment level, engine-indicated thermal efficiency was improved, and the lean burn limit was extended. The peak in-cylinder temperature and in-cylinder temperature at exhaust valve opening decrease with the increase of excess air ratio and hydrogen blending level."
See http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/08/ji-20090819.html
The question for the Mazda engineers is why did they not provide for the mixing of hydrogen with gasoline in the RX-8 Hydrogen RE, since the car comes with both fuel systems onboard? Even a small amount of hydrogen would have improved mileage on gasoline mode as the ensuing fast flame front would have propagated across the combustion chamber and burn more of the gasoline to produce power. As it is now, the unburned gas goes out to the catalytic converter, thus further perpetuating the characteristic high fuel consumption of these engines.
Mazda’s choices aside, however, some would rather see internal combustion engines abandoned outright than spend money, time and effort to improve them with hydrogen. But there are benefits in doing so, and maybe we ought to think about them.
First, using hydrogen in our vehicles now will increase demand for it, and thus hasten the setting up of the hydrogen infrastructure which will be needed for fuel cells.
Second, the increased use of hydrogen will streamline the way it is made or transported, and therefore drive down its cost. And as an added bonus, it will makes us more comfortable around hydrogen, and alleviate current fears of explosion.
Third, using hydrogen in our internal combustion engines now may salvage a century's worth of tooling investment in them, as well as in the transmissions, axles, etc. Whether we like it or not, all these will be around for a while, so we might as well make them efficient while they are with us.
Fourth, using hydrogen to improve the mileage of our cars, trucks, boats, and airplanes, should reduce our need for foreign oil, air pollution, and greenhouse gases. This may seem impossible since hydrogen is now made predominately from natural gas. However, we are presently implementing plans to make hydrogen from electricity at hydro-electric plants, geothermal plant, nuclear plants, and from electricity derived from the sun and the wind. Moreover, we are trying to make hydrogen from methane in farms and waste dumps; and directly from sewage, bacteria, seawater, and most promising, sunlight itself.
Fifth, since hydrogen increases the thermal efficiency of fossil fuels across the board (gasoline, diesel, alcohol, liquefied coal, coal, methane, and natural gas) mixing it with these fuels should improve the efficiency of furnaces, water heaters, boilers, jet engines, and perhaps even the natural gas or coal electric generators themselves.
Sixth, a greater use of hydrogen will hasten its implementation for storing energy in a pure and potent form. Just like we can store electrical energy in batteries, we can also store it by converting into hydrogen in a tank. Once there, the hydrogen can be used when needed, and where needed. Moreover, metal hydrides, nanotubes, or even cheap charred chicken feathers, can store hydrogen at low pressure, and can make it possible to ship huge quantities of energy in the form of hydrogen to remote corners of the earth.
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meme 12:41PM (9/09/2009)
Okay, Mr. Cut-and-Paste, you can cut it out now:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2009/08/mazdas-rx8-hydrogen-re-burns-hydrogen-like-its-gasoline-.html
You can stop posting the same thing everywhere you go. Could you hydrogen nuts please carry on a conversation rather than posting vertitable press releases everywhere you go?
And to address the content:
1) Yes, hydrogen is the best battery, if by "best" you mean 1/3rd the efficiency, 10 times the cost, half the longevity, way more dependent on rare materials, and 100% dependent on a material that burns in almost any fuel-air mixture, leaks through almost anything, embrittles metals, destroys ozone, pools under overhangs, and readily undergoes deflagration to detonition transitions. Apart from that, it's tops!
2) Hydrogen ICEs suck. Plain and simple. In addition to the hydrogen ruining their longevity, due to the low density of hydrogen, they have very poor power density, meaning you have to make them much bigger and heavier. And they make that efficiency equation even worse.
3) The efficiency gains of hydrogen injection are very controversial. When you actually factor in the energy of the hydrogen, they tend to be marginal -- on the order of just a couple percent. And for this, you pay a huge cost in terms of required hardware. It's been studied for ages (as you duly note). Apparently the fact that it's not widely done hasn't clued you in to that.