GM to hold webchat with Project Driveway manager Mark Vann and one of the drivers, 2pm EDT today
Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell - click above for high-res galleryThis week, General Motors' Project Driveway Fuel Cell test program will top the 1 million total mile mark after only two years on the road. GM built over 100 of the hydrogen fueled electric crossovers and they have been in daily use with both corporate partner fleets and average drivers who applied to participate in the program. Drivers in the New York, Washington, D.C. and Los Angeles Metro areas have been getting the Equinoxes for three-month loans so that GM can evaluate real world performance and durability in various conditions.
During the course of the program, GM has improved the durability of the fuel cell stack from 50,000 miles to over 80,000 miles and the per-charge range from 160 miles to over 200 miles. Lessons about cooling the stack have been applied back to the Chevy Volt program for managing the battery pack. For those interested in learning more about Project Driveway, GM will hold a web chat with program manager Mark Vann and Washington area driver Daniel Stewart today at 2pm EDT; you can participate after the jump.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Serge 3:23PM (9/09/2009)
Obviously, they don't like uncomfortable questions. In response to Mark Vann's:
"Today, the most inexpensive way to make hydrogen is reforming natural gas. But it is not carbon neutral. We think in the long term green tech like solar, wind, geothermal and hydroelectric are better ways to electrify water to make hydrogen."
I asked:
"Mark, you mentioned that in the future hydrogen will be produced from renewable sources like wind, solar, and hydroelectric (I assume via electrolysis). Why not put that electricity directly into a battery without incurring any losses?"
To never get a response. The answer to this question has tremendous implications of whether hydrogen fuel-cells are really a sustainable technology of the future or not. Silence is deafening.
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Dave 4:18PM (9/09/2009)
General Motors is attempting to produce a new breed of vehicle that can replace the status quo without a loss of utility or a huge increase in ownership and operating costs. They are attacking it from two directions:
The Volt is expected to have a high purchase price and a very low operating cost per mile.
Hydrogen vehicles are expected to have a higher operating cost. So, to beat the overall purchase/operating expense of the Volt, GM will need to sell a fuel cell vehicle for much less than the Volt.
GM knows this. Time will tell whether GM can reduce the cost of fuel cell stacks and hydrogen storage enough to make the FCEV a viable option.
Serge 5:13PM (9/09/2009)
Dave, assuming product strategies you are describing, let's take a look at differences between the Volt and FC Equinox. The power-train is essentially the same, with Volt having a larger (and more expensive battery) and fairly "cheap" range-extender. FC Equinox has a slightly smaller battery, but needs carbon-fiber hydrogen storage tanks, exotic pumps and compressors, etc, and a VERY expensive range extender that is the fuel-cell stack. The reason for "we don't talk specific numbers" answer is because they are so stratospherically high, no logical explanation exists at how to reduce the price of a million dollar prototype down to $20K mass-produced one. Early cellphones, laptops, GPS devices didn't not cost 50x as today's commercially available models.
Not only FC-EVs will have higher operating cost, they will have a substantially higher upfront cost as well.
Dave 5:51PM (9/09/2009)
"Early cellphones, laptops, GPS devices didn't not cost 50x as today's commercially available models."
The prototypes certainly did. Probably at least 500 or times as much. At least.
I would not be at all surprised if hydrogen fuel cells failed. But, if you look at the complexity of a modern drivetrain, you will see that R&D can work miracles.
Don't close your mind.
Doug 4:02PM (9/09/2009)
I participated in the above discussion. It was a bit frustrating (if unsurprising) that difficult questions (the few that got through) where deflected or not fully addressed. I did get shallow responses to a few of my questions, but deeper followups were ignored.
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Tom 5:48PM (9/09/2009)
The fuel cell electric vehicle is a work in process. As the process continues the costs will decrease. The gen 2 fuel cell mentioned is a good example of this. The critics of fuel cells seem to think that as the technology is today is the way it will always be. Batteries are useful in certain circumstances and not in others, and the same is true for fuel cells. For example the use of fuel cells in fork lifts work better then batteries. I would love to have a fuel cell as the range extender in the Volt, and maybe it will be an option someday. Progress is being made on all fronts, so let's not get prissy and we can see some great alternative fuel options as the future unfolds.
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Doug 6:24PM (9/09/2009)
Tom,
I agree that people can certainly "get prissy" as if they're rooting for a sporting team. As a science guy, I prefer to stick with objective facts. However, some of the answers in the live chat didn't feel intellectually honest.
For example there was this exchange:
"2:07
[Comment From John ]
Regardless of the driving experience, how do you address the clear fact that hydrogen and fuel cells are a poor use of electricity and are not competitive with battery powered vehicles?
2:09
Mark Vann: Hydrogen is not really a fuel but an energy carrier; it is a way to store electricity. After you go through multiple learning cycles, the costs of battery electrics and hydrogen fuel cells are competitive. And hydrogen refueling is a lot faster than recharging a BEV. For long distance drives, fuel cells have a big advantage."
Besides nebulous terms like "multiple learning cycles", how is the statement "the costs of battery electrics and hydrogen fuel cells are competitive" even remotely true? Though he didn't answer when I asked, current fuel cell costs are hundreds of thousands of dollars. If he's talking about some future of cheaper fuel cells, won't batteries be cheaper too?
He continues: "And hydrogen refueling is a lot faster than recharging a BEV."
Perhaps true with certain qualifiers. But for a lot less than the cost of a hydrogen station, you can have fast charging.
"For long distance drives, fuel cells have a big advantage."
What long distance is he talking about? A continuous repeating loop around the one or two hydrogen stations in the area? I think one would be better off with a Volt.
Doug 6:47PM (9/09/2009)
"For example the use of fuel cells in fork lifts work better [than] batteries."
Can you back up this statement?
Sean 6:49PM (9/09/2009)
"The critics of fuel cells seem to think that as the technology is today is the way it will always be"
No, we think that both technologies will come down in price and fuel cells will still be vastly more expensive than batteries.
"Batteries are useful in certain circumstances and not in others"
Yes, batteries are useful when you want to store energy to use over a significant period of time such as in a motor vehicle. If you want to use large amounts of energy over a very short period of time such as in a particle accelerator then you want capacitors or a flywheel.
"and the same is true for fuel cells"
Yeah, hydrogen fuel cells are good when you want to dispose of large amounts of money.
"For example the use of fuel cells in fork lifts work better then batteries"
This is where you show you complete lack of knowledge in the subject. Battery electric forklifts are quite common. They are completely practical since weight is not an issue and they don't usually need to go very far. You can buy one today from any number of companies including Toyota.
http://www.toyotaforklift.com/products/lift_trucks/ElectricMotorRider/3Wheel.aspx
http://www.crownsanfrancisco.com/products.html#new
Hydrogen fuel cell forklifts are an even worse idea than hydrogen fuel cell cars. If they "work better then batteries" then why can't you buy one?
To quote Blencoe "promoting a technology that does not appear to be viable for mainstream consumers only helps to maintain the status quo" This is why those of us who are informed and don't want to maintain the status quo do not support hydrogen.
David 7:16PM (9/09/2009)
Indeed BEV forklifts with 5 minute recharge have been around for a while.
See http://www.cozen.com/cozendocs/climatechangePDFs/Botsford.pdf
Even Toyota are using them.
Even in the low-speed, walled garden world of warehouses there is no need for hydrogen.
Tom 8:00PM (9/09/2009)
Gentlemen why even have a discussion? Your minds are made up. So why bother.
Fuel cells – laugh if you want but in some markets they are apparently on the rise.
Nissan (NSANY) will replace 70 chargers for conventional battery-powered tugs (fork lifts)– little cars for moving stuff around factories – with 60 methanol fuel cells from Oorja Protonics at it Smyrna, Tennessee factory. The carmaker, which has tested out the methanol fuel cells for 18 months, will add 30 more next year, said Mark Sorgi, manager of material handling at Nissan. Other sites may evaluate them as well.
Or
Plug Power (NSDQ: PLUG) announced this week it had sold 220 of its fuel cell units to Franklin Park, Ill.-based Central Grocers, Inc. which plans to use them to power the Yale Equipment Services forklifts it's buying for a new distribution center in Joliet, Ill.
Using fuel cells powered by hydrogen delivered from an Air Products (NYSE:APD) fueling system will save Central Grocers the cost of batteries and the system to recharge them, Plug Power said in a news release.
Using fuel cells also cuts down refueling time to about two minutes once or twice a day, versus batteries that need four to six recharges a day and can take hours to complete, Air Products said.
Or
While it might be a decade or more before fuel cell vehicles roll off assembly lines, fuel cell-powered forklifts are already being used, at least in prototype form, in a General Motor's car plant in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada. General Motors of Canada Ltd. and Hydrogenics Corp. are demonstrating two 5000 lb. lift capacity, Hyster E55Z, Class I sit-rider, electric counter-balanced lift tracks in which the batteries have been replaced with hybrid fuel cell propulsion systems.
Or
I know why prove anything?
skierpage 6:10AM (9/10/2009)
Tom,
The Hydrogenics HyPX fact sheet makes for interesting reading. Their fuel cell is a drop-in replacement for forklift batteries. Their 1,100 kg (!!!) fuel cell pack produces a peak power of 30 kW (a mere 40 hp) for just 5 seconds, and stores 1.6 kg of H2 (40% of a Honda Clarity). Nowhere do they say how many kWh you get out of it. The benefits they promote over batteries are the quick recharge time and not needing lots of space for recharging infrastructure. Both have zero emissions at the tailpipe which is essential for indoor operation.
I'm glad Hydrogenics' system has benefits for an application that's flat, slow, 24 hours a day, centralized, and indoors, but it doesn't have much relevance for passenger cars. Cars need more peak power (thus you need a battery or ultracapacitor as well), you don't drive them non-stop, you need H2 refueling all over, and environmentally-aware car drivers care about overall well-to-wheel emissions more than tailpipe emissions. Maybe some day fuel cells will have benefits for automotive applications, but Ballard Power Systems (another Canadian!) abandoned automotive fuel cells to focus on the same markets as Hydrogenics. Right now batteries and an ICE range-extender or a plug-in hybrid are obviously superior.
Serge 2:53PM (9/10/2009)
Tom, DMFCs are actually an interesting development and have at least two advantages over Hydrogen Fuel Cells.
1) Ease of fuel storage;
2) Cheap fuel (methanol) producible from a variety of [incl. carbon-neutral] feedstock.
3) Infrastructure that is largely in place and can be built upon existing gasoline distribution network.
Why Big Auto focuses on unrealistic Hydrogen Fuel Cells I don't know. There is a better alternative available.
Tom 3:23PM (9/10/2009)
I don't really have any investment in which alternative fuel ends up being the best or the most popular or otherwise. I am concerned about tossing out the baby with the bath water. I want to see the USA free from at least half of the foreign oil we import and I have said this since the 1970s. Once we hit that point then we are on the road to a lot of good options politically, economically etc etc. So don't get fussy at me because I want to keep the options open. Okay? Now where's that beer?
Chris M 5:56PM (9/09/2009)
I didn't find out about it until it was over. But I would have loved to asked:
"Project Driveway free fuel cell car and free fuel for 3 month leases obviously didn't reflect actual costs. After Project Driveway is over, does GM plan to offer leases that reflect the true costs, like the Toyota $7,500 per month lease for their FCEV-adv? "
I noticed that they evaded what the current cost of H2 fuel really is today, perhaps thats the reason why they offered free fuel with the free vehicle lease. Of course, they like to pretend that H2 will be really really cheap in the future, with increased demand - but current retail prices are $8 to $12 per Kg, and H2 is already being mass produced so they can't use the "mass production will drop prices" excuse. I just don't see H2 costs dropping to a fraction of current prices.
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Tom 8:04PM (9/09/2009)
Can you back up this statement? Yep
Fuel cells – laugh if you want but in some markets they are apparently on the rise.
Nissan (NSANY) will replace 70 chargers for conventional battery-powered tugs – little cars for moving stuff around factories – with 60 methanol fuel cells from Oorja Protonics at it Smyrna, Tennessee factory. The carmaker, which has tested out the methanol fuel cells for 18 months, will add 30 more next year, said Mark Sorgi, manager of material handling at Nissan. Other sites may evaluate them as well.
And several more stories like this one. Too many of the above arguments are just plain petty. Are you sure you don't work for the government?
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Doug 10:29PM (9/09/2009)
I assume this comment was directed towards me.
Though I doubt they are cheaper or "better" than fast charging batteries in this forklift application, methanol fuel cells make A LOT more sense than hydrogen fuel cells. Methanol can be produced from a variety of renewable sources; it doesn't have the storage, transport, and safety issues that hydrogen does. But most importantly it's compatible with the existing liquid fuel infrastructure and doesn't require the building of an inefficient and expensive new hydrogen infrastructure.
methanol != hydrogen, learn the difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_economy#Advantages_over_hydrogen
I don't think I made any petty arguments above. I was just pointing out that Mark Vann should be intellectually honest when making cost comparisons between BEVs and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Keep an open mind and appreciate what makes a logical argument.
Tom 8:07PM (9/09/2009)
More? Sure.
Plug Power (NSDQ: PLUG) announced this week it had sold 220 of its
fuel cell units to Franklin Park, Ill.-based Central Grocers, Inc.
which plans to use them to power the Yale Equipment Services
forklifts it's buying for a new distribution center in Joliet, Ill.
Using fuel cells powered by hydrogen delivered from an Air Products
(NYSE:APD) fueling system will save Central Grocers the cost of
batteries and the system to recharge them, Plug Power said in a news
release.
Using fuel cells also cuts down refueling time to about two minutes
once or twice a day, versus batteries that need four to six recharges
a day and can take hours to complete, Air Products said.
Or
While it might be a decade or more before fuel cell vehicles roll off
assembly lines, fuel cell-powered forklifts are already being used, at
least in prototype form, in a General Motor's car plant in Oshawa,
Ontario, Canada. General Motors of Canada Ltd. and Hydrogenics Corp.
are demonstrating two 5000 lb. lift capacity, Hyster E55Z, Class I
sit-rider, electric counter-balanced lift tracks in which the
batteries have been replaced with hybrid fuel cell propulsion
Reply
Sean 9:04PM (9/09/2009)
I looked at their press release and at first I was confused. Could they have made hydrogen fuel cells cheaper than batteries? If not why else would a company buy those lift trucks? I could not find anywhere a price for those lift trucks, but I was starting to think that they might have done what I thought was impossible. Then I found the reason and it all made sense:
"Local officials approved abating 50% of the site’s property taxes for five years. Also, the cooperative will receive USD3.8-million in state corporate tax credits and USD87,500 for employer training."
That totals well over $10,000,000 (tax on a $90,000,000 property over 5 years is a lot)
So what does it take to get a company to buy hydrogen fuel cells? Just millions upon millions of taxpayer money.