AltCar 2009: EF9's "unlimited clean energy" turbine could go into cars, if it works
by Sebastian Blanco on Oct 6th 2009 at 7:48PM 
EF9's "unlimited clean energy" system - Click above for high-res image gallery
Mark Tanner, who does R&D for EF9 Energy Systems, was pretty wiped out by the time we got to speak with him at the end of AltCar 2009 in Santa Monica last weekend. It's understandable. He'd been explaining how his system for "unlimited clean energy" was supposed to work to hundreds of attendees for two days and was starting to question his ability to transmit the information to the people who stopped at his booth. Whether it was because this was the end of the show or for another reason, we didn't quite understand it either, but here's what we took away: Tanner claims that you can get about 81 hp of power out of a system that needs just 10 hp to work. Yeah, that's what Gov. Schwarzenegger thought, too.
Somehow, by funneling air through his turbine and using atmospheric pressure and the Bernoulli effect – the atmosphere is trying to flow into the turbine at the same rate as the air is going out – Tanner's system could return eightfold the energy put into it. He explained it as the atmosphere of the earth acting as a cache of energy that expands to form wind in the narrow channel of the turbine and spins the blades.
Tanner said the concept could be installed into an electric vehicle as well as a house. We'll let Tanner explain:
There's more numbers and details in the gallery below. Also, watch EF9's own video after the jump.
Here's another thing. Tanner is looking for about ten people to invest $5,000 each to build them ten prototype systems that he would install in their homes in order to prove that the idea is solid and to provide the investors with all of the clean energy they want. He said that it's possible he'll be back next year with a working system on display. We'll be waiting.
Gallery: EF9's "unlimited clean energy"
Photos copyright ©2009 Sebastian Blanco / Weblogs, Inc.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Boyprodigy1 8:21PM (10/06/2009)
?¿ Maybe i'll understand/ not understand it when i take my fluid dynamics class next semester...
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Satn 9:48PM (10/06/2009)
having taken fluid dynamics, this guy is full of crap.
even he doesn't know what he's talking about. he's just quoting random "engineery" phrases from some old textbook he -tried- to learn fluid dynamics from.
Kyle 10:33PM (10/06/2009)
You should be able to disprove this without fluid dynamics, he only uses fluid dynamics to confuse the audience. If you put energy into a system, you can never recover more than what you put in, basic law of CoE. Don't let the use of pressure change and high velocities confuse you and stick to the basics.
jeff 11:49PM (10/06/2009)
I agree, I've taken two undergraduate and one graduate level Fluid Dynamics classes, but my first Thermodynamics class taken in first year undergrad would be enough to explain why this guy is full of it. In fact, even Homer seems to understand it on the Simpsons... "In this house we obey the laws of Thermodynamics!!"
I just hope he doesn't succeed in taking advantage of some gullible people who might be impressed by his use of terms he picked out at random from a fluids textbook.
Jared 11:04PM (10/07/2009)
As I finished reading this article and saw 10hp in = 80hp out, I thought someone forgot about the law of conservation of energy. But I'm sure plenty of engineers and people of the like read this blog.
Joe 8:25PM (10/06/2009)
Another day, another idiot.
I almost stopped to talk to this guy, but I didn't feel like waiting in line for a BS explanation.
Also, I'm not sure what that video is supposed to prove. Uh, good job. You plugged in a fan. Yay!
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mike 8:31PM (10/06/2009)
I'm not defending the guy.
But to be clear, everyone seems to be talking him down for claiming he has a perpetual energy machine.
And that is not what he is claiming.
He's just claiming that there is inherent harvestable energy contained in the pressure of the earths atmosphere and that he has devised a way to harvest it.
It's no more a free energy device (as claimed) than a solar panel.
I'm not smart enough with physics to say he is right or wrong off the top of my head and don't plan to spend the time.
But I will say this - what he is describing should not be that hard for an engineer to build.
So if it's possible why doesn't he have a working prototype showing it?
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Bill 11:02PM (10/06/2009)
No, he is claiming that he has a perpetual motion machine, and your analogy to solar panels is not accurate.
1. What this guy is claiming, somehow he takes air at 1 atmosphere of pressure removes energy from it and returns it at 1 atmosphere of pressure (it does not matter what is inside, these are the inputs and outputs) So he is saying he can constantly remove the same energy from the air and end up with the same are thus perpetual motion machine. Think about the concept like this, if you blow up a balloon you have stored energy in the form of pressure, if you release the pressure, you could get that potential energy back. But, the laws of thermodynamics (and simple logic) require that it takes at least as much energy to blow up the balloon as you get out. Think how much work you do to inflate your bike tiers.
2. Now let's look at the solar panel. You put in a photon. That photon interacts with the solar panel transferring its energy to an electron, if the photon is energetic enough, the electron breaks free from the atom it is connected to and moves around a circuit returning to fill a hole that is missing an electron. At this point you get back a lower energy photon than you started out with. No extra energy is received, just the energy you put in changed in form.
Why is simple physics so hard?
KK 11:54PM (10/06/2009)
> He's just claiming that there is inherent harvestable
> energy contained in the pressure of the earths atmosphere
And that's completely wrong. Ambient atmospheric pressure is not a power source, no more than water pressure in the ocean or the thermal energy of room-temperature air. You can only extract work (power) from a *differential* in pressure, temperature, etc.
Chris M 2:39AM (10/07/2009)
Pressure is a "force" not an "energy", to confuse the two is like confusing distance with speed. We can't get any energy from simple pressure, we can only get energy from a DIFFERENCE in pressure. Since the input and output of his device is at the same exact pressure, there is no difference, thus no energy to be obtained.
Wind is not just a spontaneous movement of air, it is movement caused by differences in atmospheric pressure in different regions caused by thermal updrafts and downdrafts, which are in turn caused by differences in density caused by temperature changes.
This same confusion between "force" and "energy" also is common to those believing in perpetual energy "magnetic motors", which like this device may move and make noise but never quite work right.
Matt234 8:10AM (10/07/2009)
If it works with air, I don't see why it wouldn't work with water. I think he should make a device that can withstand the pressure at the bottom of the sea. Imagine that! Instead of the power amplification of one atmosphere, you would amplify that 10 hp engine by a gazillion times, and thus power the entire world from a device no bigger than a peanut. (/sarcasm)
It's total BS. I've met some folks who love dreaming about the possibility of a "water engine" and such. They read a little bit on the internet, and don't think it through. I have no doubt he will find 10 people to scam.
mike 10:07AM (10/07/2009)
hahaha...
wow... a tough and nit-picky crowd.
I like the simple explanation of input = output therefor no additional energy could have been harvested.
Jared 11:11PM (10/07/2009)
Looking at the pictures... it seems like he expects the two turbines inside to compress the incoming air. This incoming air would then heat up due to compression. The expanding air would then look for a way out (the back of the machine with the largest of the 3 turbines), where the escaping air would spin the turbine and return outside the machine. And the 10hp could be what he is quoting to start the process. Sorta like starting a jet engine, except no fuel/fire to cause the expansion in the air.
Although... a working model will prove who is right and who is wrong in the end. That is... if he can make one.
Chris M 1:13AM (10/08/2009)
Jared, his description implied the opposite, that a "positive displacement blower" created a vacuum drawing in air. But no matter, either way it doesn't work. You see, that "blower" only moves 10 cu. ft. per minute if the airflow is unrestricted, and since he puts a restriction in the airflow to increase the air velocity, the airflow is much less than 10 cu. ft. per minute and the velocity through the restrictionis also much less as well. That in turn means the power output is far less than claimed, much less than the 7.5 hp input.
So, sorry, while he has made a pretty little noisemaker of a model, it doesn't really do what he claims, and he'll never be able to make an actual "working model".
Byron Thomas 6:11AM (10/11/2009)
"" everyone seems to be talking him down for claiming he has a perpetual energy machine.
And that is not what he is claiming.
He's just claiming that there is inherent harvestable energy contained in the pressure of the earths atmospher""
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huh? He is claiming that, in so many words. First, he has not built a machine that does this, so we know he is a liar. Second anyone can simplify his proposal with a "straw". Air pressure does not make air flow through it. Now, if you used energy and put one end of a straw in a pressurized tank, or the other end in a negatively pressurized tank...then "flow" will occur. Likewise, find any old water pump, ideally with an impellor that looks like this fools, and stick it in a bucket of water...NOTHING WILL HAPPEN, until you supply power.
joncodyhaines 1:33PM (10/14/2009)
This is a reply to Bill. i agree with everything you say except that electrons never move, they simply apply pressure. Yes a photon excites the electron and it pushes on all of its buddies, but if you could tag every electron in a loop you'd find they never displace themselves, they simply do a very aggressive conga line. :)
Good comments all around though.
polo 8:38PM (10/06/2009)
The sun is also a source of "unlimited clean energy", this guy just happens to be using atmospheric pressure as the source. Interesting.
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Blown tranny 10:16PM (10/06/2009)
The sun burns fuel to produce energy. Something that actually works.
The atmosphere is essentially a big mass of compressed air, and as such does contain potential energy. You would have to let the air expand into an area of lower pressure to extract any of that energy. This guy is claiming he can extract energy from expanding air but then exhaust the air right back out into the atmosphere.
The pressure on the exhaust will be equal to the pressure on the intake and nothing is going to happen.
Jared 7:14AM (10/08/2009)
The sun doesn't burn anything. It uses Fusion to bond 4 hydrogen atoms into Helium. If we as humans could harness the power of Fusion, we wouldn't have to worry about Solar, Wind, and Water power.
Then again, if we could get Antimatter energy to work, that would eliminate all our needs. Since comets are a natural source of Antimatter, we could harvest from them. And when Antimatter and matter come together, the energy they create is equal to the mass times the speed of light squared. In other words.... THE most efficient energy source in physics.
Sean C 9:02PM (10/06/2009)
I listened to the explanation and I don't understand. He was saying he's creating a 'ground state' that allows the atmospheric pressure to be harnessed. As far as I can tell, that state would have to be anything less than atmospheric pressure (a vacuum). However, what makes this a perpetual motion machine is that it should take more energy to maintain that vacuum than what would be harnessed by using the velocity of the air rushing into it to turn a turbine.
It's total BS.
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