Posawatz: Volt range-extended mileage to be "better than any conventional car." But what about hybrids?
So, plenty of time has passed since General Motors first made the announcement that its Chevy Volt extended-range electric vehicle would score 230 miles per gallon on the yet-to-be-completed EPA testing procedure for such vehicles. Still, lots of questions remain, such as How many miles per gallon with the Volt achieve after it has traveled the 40 or so miles necessary to deplete its battery pack?
Well, we still don't have an exact answer, which is partly due to the fact that GM hasn't yet finished developing the vehicle's complex software systems. In an interview with Fox Car Report Live, vehicle line directory Tony Posawatz shed some light on the topic, saying that the Volt's sustained mileage will be "better than any conventional car, and we're trying to figure out how close, or if it will actually be better than any hybrids."
To put that figure into perspective, we'd imagine that means the Volt would fall somewhere between the 32 mpg rating of the Toyota Yaris and the 50 mpg rating of the Toyota Prius when running under charge-sustaining mode with an otherwise depleted battery pack. Whatever the case, don't expect this hot-button topic to go away any time soon. Click past the break to see the exchange on video.
Gallery: 2011 Chevy Volt
[Source: Fox Car Report]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Mark Kiernan 6:12PM (10/23/2009)
Wow, an informative video by Fox News. Good questions, the commentator knows what he is talking about, Bill O'Reilly/Glenn Beck he isn't.
Reply
paulwesterberg 6:36PM (10/23/2009)
They were showing stock footage from the 1st gen prototype, you can see how they rounded out all the corners and made the side windows much smaller - with a big black border to try to make them still look spacious.
owlafaye 9:14PM (10/23/2009)
The Volt is being designed according to General Motors old way of doing business. By the time it gets to market it will be an obvious anachronism. The advanced automotive technology from a myriad of other manufacturers, and due to debut at the time of (and before) the Volt, will bury this foolishness and relegate it to Edsel status.
paulwesterberg 6:21PM (10/23/2009)
That's too bad, I was hoping that they would be able to beat or match the 50mpg prius
If it could do 60mpg in charge sustaining mode that would be a huge win for gm.
Better than some hybrids is setting pretty low expectations.
They let you dial the automatic regen, big deal.
Reply
b_turbessi 9:14PM (10/23/2009)
I fully agree. The Volt should definitely do at least 60 or more without any gas. I was thinking around 100 miles per charge.
b_turbessi 9:23PM (10/23/2009)
I wonder if anyone out there in GM land even gives a sh_ _ about what we say here. The car simply needs to kick ass in miles per charge and gas generated mileage to really take off. I hope you are really listening out there GM? The EV-1 was getting approx. 100 miles per charge before they scrapped it. I thought by now we would be up to 200-300 miles/charge. Are we going backwards. PLEASE!!!!!! Come on GM, get some brains in there!!!
bvz 10:09PM (10/23/2009)
paul,
I think the big idea is that they get close to standard hybrids when in charge sustaining mode, and kick their arse when doing local commuting under 40 miles. I.e. if I never drive more than 40 miles in a day (or between charging sessions) then I essentially get infinite mpg (of course, that isn't likely, and the electricity comes from somewhere, but we are discussing the miles per gallon of gasoline here). So in that scenario, 60mpg seems completely doable, and most likely you'll do better. I don't think that that is setting any low expectations. The best the Prius will EVER do is somewhere around 48 mpg (that's the EPA number for a 2009 model). Remember, they are simply discussing the mileage when in charge sustaining mode. If you never get out of that mode, then you are buying the wrong car.
Boy I really hate the thought that people will think of me as a fanboy ('cause I generally hate GM products... I used to get a migraine driving my dad's Chevy), but I also have to address your comment b_turbessi...
Show me a shipping product by any company that gets better than 60 mpg, allows you to run in electric only mode while in town, and can complete a 600 mile journey in 10 hours. You can't because there aren't any. At any price. Even when the Volt ships, there really won't be many (and if there are some, they will be pretty much on par with the Volt).
GM has produced some incredible garbage in the past, but I think it is unfair to condemn them on this project. They really seem to be working on something solid here.
Matt234 10:14PM (10/23/2009)
Who cares what the regen mileage is, unless it's conspicuously bad? It's there for emergency only, i.e. "peace of mind". Only a crazy person would buy the Volt if they didn't plan to run it as electric-only almost all the time.
I do hope GM is reading this. They need to get it to market fast, and they need to make it super reliable. None of this flashy LCD screen stuff. Just the basics we would have in a normal car, while on electric for 40 miles, please.
Nick From Montreal 6:36PM (10/23/2009)
What a winner: not enough EV miles to beat the Nissan Leaf and not enough MPGs to beat the Prius. Basically, second rate at everything.
I'm praying that they will introduce battery pack upgrades so that those who want to pay could get 40-60 more EV miles. Otherwise, this car makes no sense at all.
Reply
bvz 7:17PM (10/23/2009)
Actually, I think you might be overstating the benefits of both those competitors... and somehow combining them in the process. Do you want the range of the Prius or the reduced fuel usage of the Leaf? Because somehow you think the Volt should best both of those in a single package even though each of them only excels in one area.
The Leaf has nowhere the range of the Volt (and none of the emotional security that entails). The Prius will only best the volt in mpg if you drive it in charge sustaining mode for an extended period of time...
So... if you own a single car and mostly drive it to commute around town, but occasionally drive to Grandma's house 250 miles away you will be in a better situation than if you owned either a Leaf or a Prius. Better average mpg than the Toyota and still the ability to travel on vacation without having to swap cars or take three days.
That said, I like your idea of optional battery upgrades.
paul.stoller 7:35PM (10/23/2009)
You make no sense at all, the target audience for this vehicle will likely not be exceeding the EV miles per day on a regular basis. If the volt can get 40-50 mpg in charge sustaining mode it will be more than sufficient as drivers will be in this mode less than 20-30% of the time.
While the Volt may not make sense for you personally, given your driving patterns, it certainly would be a great vehicle for the majority of us.
tomW 7:57PM (10/23/2009)
Being "second best at everything" is awesome. Plug-in hybirds are the only cars in near future that can both 1) greatly reduce dependency on petroleum, and 2) provide full functionality with no compromises.
Prius uses nothing but gasoline. It gets ~50 mpg. This reduces the use of gasoline by 30% (no, not 50%) versus the best regular cars (~35 mpg).
Leaf uses no gasoline, but can only travel 100 miles per day (or less). You may be fine with that, but most people who are buying a $30,000+ car will not be.
Volt will use NO gasoline, just like Leaf, for 40 miles per charge. If you drive more, it becomes a fuel-efficient hybrid. Even if it doesn't match the Prius, it'll be close, probably >40 mpg. So it gives you the max benefit of the Leaf for 40 miles, and then almost the benefit of a Prius. That's awesome.
Some say "but I drive 60 miles per day." Great, you still get the full benefit of using no gas for 40 miles. If you use 40 mpg for Volt, 50 mpg for Prius, and 35 mpg for a best regular car, on a 60-mile trip Volt uses 0.5 gallons, Prius uses 1.2 gallons, and a regular car uses 1.7 gallons of fuel. Prius saves 30% of gas, Volt saves 71% of gas! Clearly, this car "makes no sense at all."
Also, GM can make the Volt a little smaller, a little lighter and a little more efficient to match Prius' 50 mpg. The point is that the technology itself delivers on all counts of greatly reducing oil consumption, delivering great fuel economy afterwards, and having no important limitations.
If you still love the Leaf, ask Nissan "What will be Leaf's range in regular highway use: at 70 mph, with A/C, after 3 years in service." Please do.
Nick From Montreal 8:00PM (10/23/2009)
Oh, I get it now: it's the MPG on ICE *alone*, not combined. One more reason we need both numbers so that nobody gets confused...
Also, I'm wondering why they don't focus more on the flexfuel angle: this car can basically run on everything...
fnc 8:10PM (10/23/2009)
You get -10 points for completely missing the point of the technology in this car.
An EV in everyday use for most people, yet can still travel across the country at a moment's notice without having to be plugged in for hours at a time. Sure, you can argue that people will just buy either an EV or a hybrid instead based on what they need, and I will counter with the fact that idiots spent -stupid- amounts of money on SUV's just to drive around in by themselves and justified the excess and inefficient utility with "I might want to go camping sometime."
Dave 8:02PM (10/23/2009)
GM needs the 230 mpg rating.
It will allow GM to sell more large SUVs, and other profitable vehicles, by offsetting their drag on CAFE.
Reply
Richard 9:07PM (10/23/2009)
I would like to know something, when the battery is so low that the ICE kicks in, doesn't that not make enough juice to run the car, but also recharge the battery? Also, if that is what is happening, shouldn't those mile in recharged battery be counted towards the MPG figure?
As for the video, it seams that 40 miles range is very hard to reach since nobody on the test panel has been able to do it so far. So 40 mile range is a lie!
Reply
bvz 9:52PM (10/23/2009)
When you get the batteries so low that the ICE kicks in, it only runs enough to keep the batteries from dipping any lower. It does not recharge them back to full.
This is intentional because if you allowed the ICE to recharge the batteries up to their full potential, you effectively lose the ability to recharge from the wall (i.e. you get home and your car's batteries are full because you just burned a bunch of gas to recharge them).
The idea is to have the Volt be mostly an electric car (aka. batteries charged from the electric grid) vs. one that burns gasoline like any other car.
Re: the lie. The interviewee clearly states that some people HAVE been able to achieve 40 miles on pure electric. So it isn't really a lie. Is it an exaggeration? Possibly and that may come back to haunt them if it turns out to be a big one. But if people regularly get, say, 37 miles on electric drive only, I don't think most folks will have considered it to have been a huge lie.
Richard 12:02PM (10/24/2009)
So let me get this straight. The prius with a 1.5l engine can recharge the batteries and run the car, while the Volt with a 1.4l engine can only run the car? Sounds like a waste of gasoline to me.
Also, If they say it gets 40 mile range, it should get 40 mile range, not 37. That's lying. 40 miles is already a low figure, 37 is a 7.5% discrepancy. Way to large. If I figure my daily commute is around 40 miles, I'm going to be pissed if I continually get 37. Plus I use AC, which I'm assuming is going to cut my range even further. This Volt is starting to sound like not such a great thing. Not for $40K!
Matt234 2:09PM (10/24/2009)
@Richard: You need to break out of thinking of the Volt in terms of the Prius. The Prius is "just" a gas powered car with electric boost. It uses gas very efficiently, but it will always need gas. The Volt on the other hand is a true electric car, that happens to also have a flex-fueled battery charger. What you are paying the $40K for (or whatever the price will be) is to be able to drive an electric car with the peace of mind that you won't ever run out of juice.
Re: range of 40 miles. There can't possibly be an exact number for this. If you live somewhere hot and hilly, and you drive like you stole it, maybe you will get 30 miles on electric. If you are a hypermiler, perhaps you could get 50 miles. The average person, maybe somewhere inbetween. The interview mentions the software in the car will be designed to help you get the most range out of the battery.
bvz 4:03PM (10/24/2009)
Richard,
The Volt's engine is powerful enough to run the car AND recharge the batteries. The difference is that it does not spend a whole lot of time (and expensive, polluting gasoline) doing so. Instead it usually only runs as much as needed to generate the electricity to power the wheels.
The Volt has a "minimum charge" level for the batteries. I believe this is at about 30%. Once it depletes the batteries to this point it switches to charge sustaining mode which I just described. There are cases, however, where you may temporarily dip below this point. Say you are accelerating to pass someone on a country road. The engine can only provide roughly 100hp or so, but you can dip into the batteries and get an extra 30 or 40hp for a few moments. Once you get around that microbus, you go back to using less than the full output of the engine, but it continues to run harder to get those batteries back up to 30%.
The engine is as big as it is because I think GM is being very cautious about this car. It HAS to perform as well as a regular car and therefore they are keeping it away from the fringes of what is technically possible (there are so many new technologies already they have to exercise some caution I think). In time I suspect the cars (from all manufacturers) that use this format will become lighter and get smaller generators.
Re: Lie. I think you are just being a bit argumentative here. I haven't looked, but I suspect GM has been saying "about" 40 miles and not "exactly" 40 miles. Like Matt said, it is comparable to the EPA mileage estimates given for cars. In the interview it was quite clearly stated that some people HAVE been getting 40 miles on a charge. And like I said, it may be an exaggeration which will come back to haunt them (aka you being pissed about not getting the full 40 miles). Depending on how much of an exaggeration it is, I could even understand some anger. But "lie" carries with it a whole lot of baggage that seems to be a bit heavy for a car that hasn't even been released. 40 miles is an engineering target, not a promise made to anyone yet.