Ford dismisses battery swaps
One of the favored concepts among many electric vehicle proponents (and, most prominently, Better Place) is replaceable battery packs as a means of "rapid refueling." However, aside from Nissan-Renault, no other major automaker has expressed any interest in the idea in the near term. Even Nissan is hedging its bets and the LEAF is not expected to include a swappable battery.
Ford's Nancy Gioia is among the naysayers on battery swapping. Gioia is Ford's global director of vehicle electrification and we've spoken with her on several occasions (see below) about the hybrid and plug-in programs at the Dearborn automaker. There are many issues with swapping, starting with the fact that there is no standard pack format meaning that swap stations would have to stock many different types. Many of the upcoming plug-in vehicles are using liquid-cooled packs, which means the coolant links would have to be opened up to change the pack.
The high voltage couplings also need to be designed to withstand thousands of connection cycles, while maintaining seals and connections. With battery technology still changing rapidly, automakers are unlikely to want to settle on a standard battery for the foreseeable future.
Related:
- Nancy Gioia explains why Ford isn't doing an ER-EV
- Nancy Gioia discusses hybrids, plug-ins and battery leases
[Source: All Cars Electric]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Gary 11:12AM (10/30/2009)
Categorize under "Duh".
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phd924 11:21AM (10/30/2009)
Too many many parts /problems waiting to happen.
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Boyprodigy1 11:23AM (10/30/2009)
Well guys come on! You aren't being fair to battery swap technology! How am i supposed to put in a battery made out of a new type of cells if they bury it as far in the car as they can! I dont want to pay a dealer (or repair guy) for that!!!!!
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KK 11:38AM (10/30/2009)
Actually, I think it's unlikely a battery swap would allow you to use a different type of battery. Each type of battery needs charging and monitoring circuits specifically designed for it. I imagine the car computer needs to be tailored to a specific battery (or batteries), so it uses the battery correctly.
Even for consumer electronics with removable batteries, you usually can't get new types of batteries to fit on your old electronics. You can't put a Li-Ion battery pack on a laptop designed to use Ni-Mh battery packs, or on digital cameras that use standard AA batteries.
paulwesterberg 11:46AM (10/30/2009)
Ford: If you want a new battery then just buy a brand new car.
paulwesterberg 11:51AM (10/30/2009)
@kk actually I think the better place system is designed to allow the batteries to be updated the battery management system is integrated with the pack. As long as the new packs use the same voltage and form factor it should work. If they really needed flexibility they could have the new pack upload new operating parameters to the vehicle computer.
Doug 12:20PM (10/30/2009)
Apples and Oranges. Designing the car to have the battery pack accessible by a mechanic for repair or upgrade is a separate issue from Better Place style fast battery swaps.
Woodenbee 11:29AM (10/30/2009)
as usual the big companies are trying to make their products as proprietary as possible, no doubt they want to build in as much obsolescence as they can from day one, battery swapping would require some standardizing and also easy removal of the battery pack, two things that they are no doubt dead set against, actually the first legitimate President in eight years should mandate that battery pack size and connections should be standard across the board, and globally, that way cars would simply receive upgraded batteries as needed and not have to replace the whole car, which has been the business model pretty much for ICE cars for decades which suits the car companies just fine, maintaining the status quo so to speak
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KK 11:31AM (10/30/2009)
> The high voltage couplings also need to be designed to
> withstand thousands of connection cycles, while maintaining
> seals and connections.
Doesn't the charging socket need to do the same?
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meme 12:52PM (10/30/2009)
Yes. But the charge socket is a cheap, simple connector that does 240V at no more than 70A (usually less). The battery pack is a heavy, expensive device that does usually 250-450V (in the case of li-ion) at hundreds of amps. If a charger fails, you've got a single dead charger. If your pack fails, you have a dead car.
radler63 11:49AM (10/30/2009)
I guess Fords battery-vehicle interfaces are not so intelligent. Connect with caps open producing sparks? No guys do-it-again!
Of course technology for switchng, cooling etc. does not fall from heaven - but look: people might save half of the 350 kg of batteries if they have swap station along their routes. And that is quite something with regards to price tag, isn't it?
Imagine a care which might drive around with only half the battery size for commuting and take on board the larger one for the week end trip. How sounds that - energy and economy wise?
http://www.hyperbike.cc/Vorlage.phtml?id=2312&lan=en
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meme 12:52PM (10/30/2009)
Do you really think the general public is going to be comfortable driving around in a car that only has a nominal 50 miles range (often on an overly-optimistic cycle like LA-4 or the 10-15?) I seriously doubt that.
Ford is absolutely correct. The standardization issue especially is a killer. And it's not for a lack of trying. A multi-hundred pound object needs to be designed into the vehicle. The Tesla Roadster, being a sports car shaped RWD two seater, needs a trunk-shaped rearward pack with great capacity, if at the cost of extra expense and shorter lifespan. Cheaper vehicles need smaller packs with longer life cells. The Volt, being a sedan-shaped FWD four-seater, needs an even distribution of its pack along the floor, which means going down the center tunnel and a T at the rear under the seats. The MiEV, being a kei car without room for a center tunnel pack, needs its pack to run along the length of the vehicle under the entire floor (but thinner). The Aptera, due to its curvature and need for the pack to be weighted forward, can't do either, and thus needs a pack under the seats (and likely strangely shaped). And on and on. And do we even need to get into cargo vehicle packs? Or motorcycle packs?
Then there's the issue of pack nominal voltages. Pack discharge curves. Pack charge/discharge capabilities. Pack cooling needs and vehicle cooling capabilities. And on, and on, and on. And these things being heavy and thus integral to handling, they really need to be solidly bolted down.
Battery pack swap is not an answer. It's such a massive, integral part of the vehicle, you'd be better off suggesting vehicle swap. Rapid charging is the solution.
eFried 12:26PM (11/03/2009)
Well ".. is a killer" is correct - it will kill ideas to make a living with overpriced battery replacements. Compare AA cells with batteries for mobile phones and you see the difference!
I'm absolutely convinced that countries make a big mistake not requirind standardisation when pouring millions into automobile industry now.
Technical solutions for intregration may be solved in due time, but the business models of the OEMs are much firmer, selling us the wrong cars with higher profits for them!
The businesss itself is luxury bound and thus not sustainable. Since now OEMs are partly publicly owned there should be much more rigid tests whether their business is creating avoidable external costs or not.
regards
Efried
lne937s 12:06PM (10/30/2009)
Let's put feasibility aside and look at motivations:
Battery swapping would require multiple batteries (something to swap) and move the potential profits of an electric car away from the car to the battery producer.
Ford doesn't make batteries (less profit). Nissan/Renault does (more profit).
Standardization needed for a battery swap system would shift significant design and engineering control from the manufacturers to the battery manufacturers.
Ford doesn't make batteries (less control). Nissan/Renault does (more control).
It would also move profit from the dealer (with the manufacturer that supplies the dealer insertiing a o profit margin) to the swapping station (and those with an interest in them).
Ford would make money from the dealer alone. Nissan/Renault would make money from both.
Overall, battery swapping would make those automotive companies with integrated battery production, inhouse development and a financial interest in the swapping stations more likely to succeed (Nissan/Renault) than those that would outsource much of their electric vehicles (Ford).
Regardless of whether you think it will work or not, Nissan/Renault would benefit from it and support it. Ford would not benefit from it and does not support it.
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Sam Abuelsamid 8:51AM (10/31/2009)
The problem with this argument is that while Nissan/Renault is the only company besides (Tesla) that is interested in battery swapping, it is not the only one making batteries. Like Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Daimler and Honda all have joint ventures fro batteries and none are going down this path. Even GM is building their own packs and investigating cell production and yet they don't see swapping as viable.
lne937s 2:37PM (10/31/2009)
The big difference is that Nissan started its automotive Lithium Ion battery development in the mid 90's (and introduced its first limited production lithium ion car in the late 90's)- about a decade before the other companies you are mentioning for Li Ion chemistry. Those other companies have much less of an investment in Li Ion battery tech and therefore less of a benefit when the investment starts to pay off.
Other companies are scrambling to buy in for "me-too" status (similar to when the Prius started to catch on). However, Nissan/Renault has the decade+ of development and investment in Lithium Ion and will make money if a battery-intensive battery swap model catches on. If it does, those other comanies will have one more hurdle to cross before they can catch up.
william 12:55PM (10/30/2009)
Hey, want to change the battery in my car. If I wanted non-replaceable battery, I would get an iPhone.
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Rick C. 1:31PM (10/30/2009)
Not completely correct. The same third-party outfits that swap iPod batteries now do the iPhone. And if you had just a little courage and hands-on ability, you could do it yourself and not pay someone. If and when electric cars become popular, I intend to get my hands dirty.
mk3 1:19PM (10/30/2009)
Ford is right.
It is way too early to agree upon a 'standard' battery. maybe this could happen in 20 or 25 years from now but for now we need companies/engineers to compete with each other and determine the best solution.
What about the issue of the quality of the battery. I know if I felt I had a 'good' battery in my car I wouldn't be very happy to drop it out and risk putting a bad one in.
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Joeviocoe 1:44PM (10/30/2009)
This is a dead end!
With all the engineering hurdles, is it really worth the extra effort?
1) How many of these "Swap Stations" would need to be built to handle the customers. It becomes the same "Chicken or the Egg" infrastructure problem that Hydrogen has. Where would you put up battery swapping stations? Do folk who live in areas with only a few EV drivers have to drive a long ways to get a swap?
2) The added engineering. These packs, as mentioned above, account for a LARGE portion of the overall weight. You can't just put 40% of the weight of the whole car in the most convenient place for a swap. Disconnecting coolant connections in an automated process requires very specific connections so that requires much more engineering dollars.
3) The soul of an EV is in it's battery. It is not like changing a tire. You CANNOT standardize the soul. That is like saying ALL cars must have a 1.8L turbo. That means the maker of the standard has NO competition, and no competition means little to no innovation. You have to allow the car makers to compete for the best battery packs and not worry if it means a standard for swapping (safety standards are okay).
*** So what is the ONLY REASON FOR BATTERY SWAPPING???
So people can go on road trips? Build a 100 mile per charge EV and 95% of the trips they make will not require a battery swap.
The same problem that I have for hydrogen, I have with battery swapping.
Creating a whole new infrastructure to satisfy range anxiety and long road trips. Several million dollars and expensive engineering just so they can give people that extra 5%.
PERFECT IS THE ENEMY OF GOOD.
Just build a small 1.4L turbodiesel or flex-fuel into a small towable trailer and rent it out. AC Propulsion had a nice one for the Tzero several years ago. Keep it simple folks.
And automakers can choose to add a tow package and charge while driving capability very easily without having to re-engineer their cars.
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