China turns to methanol for flex-fuel cars
Methanol is an unusual alcohol. For one thing, it can be used in fuel cells instead of hydrogen. It is also used by homebrewers to make biodiesel. Alternatively, it can be used in internal combustion engines instead of gasoline (see: drag racing). In China, methanol has just been approved by the ministry for standards for use as a motor vehicle fuel. Like ethanol in the U.S., China now permits the chemical to be added to pure gasoline so that it makes up to 85 percent of the mixture. The U.S. has E85, China has M85. It's possible to make methanol from natural gas, wood, and coal. The downside? Methanol is less efficient than either gasoline or ethanol. For example, a car that gets 10 l/100 km (23.5 mpg) using gasoline would get 12.5 l / 100 km (18 mpg) on ethanol and 15 l / 100 km (15.5 mpg) on methanol.
Green Car Advisor notes that one of the first automakers to prepare a powertrain that can burn methanol is Geely, which makes some of the cheapest cars in the world.
[Source: Green Car Advisor]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
pax copia 7:27PM (11/10/2009)
I think if we are going to talk efficiency we should expound upon it so that the rating is validated. How much external energy does it take to get a hold of ethanol versus methanol versus gasoline? For example, we spend a lot of energy and resources simply battling for the latter. Putting in roads, drilling, tearing up the environment, often spilling, etc.
Reply
meme 7:44PM (11/10/2009)
Methanol is also a potent neurotoxin that causes irreversible damage; it takes as little as 10ml to blind you and 30ml to kill you. Small doses cause headache, lack of coordination, dizziness, and confusion. In case we care about that sort of stuff.
In the lab, you're always supposed to use a vent hood around methanol. Think anything like that will happen in the real world? Leaking fuel? Cans of gas? Etc?
Reply
letstakeawalk 8:06PM (11/10/2009)
Methanol has been popular as an automotive fuel since the mid-1970's. Methanol powered flex-fuel vehicles were available for purchase here in the US during the 1990's.
It's also a major ingredient in windshield-washing fluid.
Most people already handle methanol safely. No need to spread the fear here, meme.
meme 10:08PM (11/10/2009)
1) Methanol has only been a popular fuel in very specific, controlled venues, such as auto racing.
2) Methanol is slowly being phased out of use for windshield wiper fluid because of the danger; you'll notice that many brands advertize their low methanol content or that they're methanol free. And when it comes to wipers, we're not talking pure methanol -- methanol as merely a dilutant to water and other ingredients, and only a small amount of it. Yet each year thousands of people in the US are sickened and dozens killed by accidental ingestion of methanol.
We need *less* toxic energy sources, not more.
Rick C. 3:52PM (11/11/2009)
Methanol is a nasty neurological agent. I've got the MSDS right here in front of me in fact. I have to explain to every non-technical new hire that this stuff is not rubbing alcohol and you don't get it on your skin or breath in the fumes. It's a necessary evil here in the lab, it's the only agent that can be trusted to clean very expensive laser optics.
mudder 8:38PM (11/10/2009)
Siphoning fuel is common in emergencies (and for theft) among the poor in many countries. Siphoning methanol may cause blindness.
Reply
Doug 8:50PM (11/10/2009)
Interesting. I didn't realize it was safe to ingest gasoline.
letstakeawalk 8:55PM (11/10/2009)
I've had a bad habit of licking battery terminals ever since I was a kid.
/not really
//just a nine volt every now and then, I can quit whenever I want.
Wait until you've been out shopping, and you come back to find the "housing-challenged" using your PHEV to power their electric cooker, LOL.
Rick 9:54PM (11/10/2009)
I was wondering what was the purpose of that 120ac outlet in the new Rav4 was all about.
It's for cooking dinner after I lose my apartment. :)
meme 10:21PM (11/10/2009)
Gasoline's toxicity is nothing compared to methanol's.
mudder 1:31PM (11/11/2009)
Public outcry over the toxicity of methanol scuttled Brazil's experiment with its use in auto fuel.
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/30/world/rio-journal-autos-cry-for-alcohol-france-will-do-its-part.html?pagewanted=all
Sean 2:26PM (11/11/2009)
So if you siphon methanol, spit it out and drink some vodka.
Doug 3:34PM (11/11/2009)
@mudder
Well here's your problem:
"The debate also brought out the casual attitudes that many Brazilian fuel-station attendants have toward sugar-cane alcohol fuel. Frequent Contact With Fuel
Many work in plastic sandals, splashing fuel on their feet. Others use the fuel to wash their hands or as a home cleaning solvent. Sometimes, underpaid attendants gulp a few shots of fuel as a cheap intoxicant."
Yeah, probably should do that with methanol or gasoline.
btw, Harvey Mudd?
mudder 4:21PM (11/11/2009)
@Doug, class of 79
Joeviocoe 8:53PM (11/10/2009)
This is your queue Carney....
Misuse of the term "efficient" Sebastian. Methanol has less "energy density". Combustion Efficiency is a measure of how much energy you can get out of it compared only to how much energy is actually in it. For instance, if Methanol didn't burn very well and left a lot of Carbon Monoxide, that would be inefficient.
Or if Methanol production required more energy than chemically contains, that would be a measure of Production Inefficiency. All fuels are inefficient, but to what degree and compared to what?
These are the true questions:
How many Joules of energy is required to produce the amount of Methanol required to go 1 mile in a certain flex-fuel car?
Now how many Joules to go that same mile in that same car using gasoline? Or now Ethanol?
Now do the same calculations, but replacing the Energy (Joules) with cost (dollars).
Then do them again using emissions.
Combining the answers also depend on what you value most; energy, costs, emissions, safety, sustainability.
No "one liners" are going to define the benefits and/or disadvantages here fellas. You gotta get up to knees into it to truly understand.
Reply
Dino 9:59PM (11/10/2009)
Well said. Obviously when the author said "is less efficient", they meant "has less specific energy content". Obviously.
gorr 9:34PM (11/10/2009)
Methanol seem easy to do with few feedstock.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/11/cs3.html
Reply
Rick 9:49PM (11/10/2009)
5 minutes of checking around leads me to believe that ingesting gasoline is a worse than methanol. Also methanol is commonly found in a lot of products already so it seems that as a safety concern shifting from gasoline to methanol wouldn't be a big worry.
Reply
meme 10:22PM (11/10/2009)
Five minutes of checking on where? The Big Book Of Bad Information?
Methanol has an LD50 of 400mg/kg. Gasoline, 13600mg/kg. I.e., if you weigh ~175lbs, you have a 50% chance of dying if you drink ~30 grams of methanol. To get the same chance of dying from drinking gasoline, you'd have to drink 1.1 kilograms (about 2/5ths of a gallon)
Rick 10:33PM (11/10/2009)
just the top answers to search questions - nothing definitive - the gasoline ingestion answers seemed scarier than the methanol ingestion answers.
I think I'd reccomend against drinking either, but you probably know best.