AutoblogGreen Q&A: Civic Hybrid owner John True (he's the guy suing Honda)
Southern California musician John True recently filed suit against American Honda Motor Company over their mileage claims for the Civic Hybrid. In an era of rising fuel costs he thought the hybrid would help save some money but his new car failed to come anywhere near the numbers Honda was advertising. He came up against the hard reality that hybrids don't always give you any mileage benefit if your driving patterns don't match certain specific conditions. You'll never find that in an ad for a hybrid. Mr. True agreed to talk to ABG about his experience and what he is doing now.
AutoblogGreen: I'm talking to John True today. Mr. True, why don't you give us a brief recap of the story, what's going on with you and your Civic.
John True: Basically, when we bought the car the salesman told us, I guess, everything that we wanted to hear. We were going to buy a Ford, I think it's the Ford Hybrid.
ABG: The Escape Hybrid?
JT: Yes and when we found out that allegedly the Honda Civic got 50 miles or 51 miles to the gallon that would have been better for us. We're both musicians, my fiancé's a singer, I'm a pianist, and when you live in Southern California if you want to work you have to travel, so we're in Ontario and we travel a lot into Orange County, a lot into South Orange County, and with my keyboard and amp and all the sound stuff. So we knew we probably wouldn't get 50 miles a gallon but we thought what the heck, you know, if we get 40, 45, that's okay.
Read the rest of John True's unhappy hybrid story after the jump.
JT: But we have tried everything, first of all, we always use the synthetic oil like they recommended. We keep the tires inflated. As far as the air conditioning, in Southern California we have to use the air conditioning, okay? And being musicians we like to listen to the CDs and whatnot so we also do that, but other than that we're just normal Southern California drivers, we don't speed, and the best gas mileage we have gotten so far, we made a trip in the car to Vegas, coming back we used the cruise control. We got 34.6 miles to the gallon, that's the most we've ever done. Yeah, and we've tried everything else.
ABG: Have you tried talking to the dealer to have the car checked out and make sure everything is functioning properly?
JT: Several times, including the manager. And it was the mechanic that works over at Penske Honda. I mean, he just kind of shook his head, you know, he said I don't know why they tell you that. And I said what do you mean? He says well, just between you and me, I don't know of any car that's getting that kind of gas mileage. Any Honda Civic. So I guess we're not the only ones.
ABG: Right. Generally I think everybody pretty much expects that they're going to get less mileage, lower mileage than what's advertised. I think maybe in your case it is obviously quite a bit lower than what's advertised. In the driving conditions that you typically experience how much below the advertised mileage have you typically gotten in the past with previous cars that you've owned? Here we're talking about 30, 35 percent below the advertised mileage with the Honda.
JT: Yeah we own an '89 Ford Taurus and we own a '91 Mercedes Benz 320 and we really don't drive the Ford Taurus hardly anymore, it's kind of just parked, but we drive the Mercedes Benz a lot. We rotate with the Honda Civic and honestly I don't really keep tabs on the mileage on the Mercedes Benz. It gets pretty good gas mileage, but not great, not great at all. But, I've only really become gas mileage conscious in the last two years with the soaring prices in Southern California where we live.
ABG: Sure, that's understandable.
JT: It's really become an issue. So, you know, this is the first time I've ever purchased a car on just that strength. The gas mileage. You know, I think the Honda is a really nice car, the Honda Civic, except they should not have lied to us about the gas mileage. Because we would have kept on shopping and comparing.
ABG: What do you hope to achieve from your lawsuit? Do you want Honda to change their advertising?
JT: Absolutely. We're getting lies from the top down, from our political leaders, from these people that advertise, talk out of the side of their mouth, fast food chains and whatnot, somewhere along the line it's hey guys, put on the brakes, you know?
ABG: Have you considered trying to include, and I don't know if you even can, if it's possible – including the EPA in the lawsuit because obviously the mileage figures that Honda advertises and that all the other car makers advertise are generated by the EPA. They're not generated internally by the car makers, so have you looked at that possibility?
JT: Well, that would be up to our lawyers. But I think they're all in bed with each other. God, they've gotta be kidding. You know, we're big boys and girls here, so they've got to be accountable for that crap that they issue that they're trying to pull the wool over our eyes, and make it sound real official. I mean, you can say anything right?
ABG: Just to go back a little bit to the driving conditions that you typically have, do you typically drive in an urban environment or is it more freeway-type driving?
JT: Freeway.
ABG: Mostly freeway?
JT: Freeway, freeway, freeway. We live on the freeway.
ABG: So you don't get a lot of stop-and-go driving then?
JT: No.
ABG: I'm not sure what your knowledge is of the way hybrid systems work but they typically get their primary benefit during urban stop-and-go driving when, when they can do more regenerative braking and I don't think the car makers really advertise that aspect very much, that they generally don't get much benefit in freeway driving for the most part.
JT: Right.
ABG: Well, is there anything else that you'd like to add?
JT: Well, somebody told me that all the advertising in a couple of years has got to be on a realistic basis. I don't know if that's a rumor I heard.
ABG: For 2008, the EPA has revised their fuel mileage rating system. In fact, all those numbers, the 2008 numbers, are posted fueleconomy.gov where they've got the revised numbers posted now, but even, even the revised 2008 numbers for the Civic Hybrid are 40 miles per gallon city and 45 highway, so it's gone from 49, 51, but it's still quite a bit more than than what you've achieved in your driving.
JT: Yeah, very unrealistic.
ABG: So they've tried to make the, the numbers more realistic but I think they're probably in some cases still on the high side.
JT: Yeah, they're still fudging. They're should come to Southern California, drive on the 405, drive on the 210, drive on the 57, all these are freeways, these are like our streets you know? This is Southern California. It's like a big cobweb of freeways And you can't really survive without going on the freeway.
ABG: Well, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me today.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Mike 9:32PM (6/11/2008)
I have 2007 civic hybrid and is giving me the same mpg 33-32 and may be all the people who left the comments are honda sales person ot etc. (and i`m driving slow) so dont tell me how to drive the car really sucks, i want to meet some people to see aobut their hybrids. my gfriends mazda 3 3 i giving better mpg
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Blaster94 3:49PM (10/16/2009)
This guy is a tool. I've had a 2007 HCH since Febuary of 2007. I've averaged 48-52 mpg over the 60000 miles I've owned it. I drive mostly at 65 mph. This guy must be one of those idiots that floors the gas everywhere and slams on the brakes all the time. You folks getting 3x mpg in your HCH need to learn to drive appropriately. You did not buy a sports car, you bought an economy car.
London 12:18AM (10/22/2008)
I know this man. Regardless if you like Honda or don't is not the issue. Regardless if you have the same car and are getting better results is not the issue. Regardless if you drive slow or fast is not the issue. The car is telling him he is only getting 32mpg and 34.6 at best since he has owned the car. I don't care if he is towing a fat lady with the air on and the music blasting, having a car claim 50mpg at best and only getting 32 or 34 at best is complete bullshit. That's a huge difference. The laws need to be changed to enforce true and accurate facts to customers. NOT here's the BEST CASE MAYBE. In the sales business that called Over Committing and Under Delivering. Not good for business if you know sales 101. Image if we pay for things as customers but it's always the best case and not the accurate case. I want to know actual facts when I'm spending my money. When I go the store and get a gallon of milk that says $3.99 "best case scenario it might be 100% full depending on certain conditions" on the sign, would I buy it? NO. My point is the standards of advertising need to be more accurate and not off by 30 or 40%. Regardless of what the product is. It's that simple. Those that disagree, you go buy the gallon of milk and on the way, I'll sell you some beach front property in Arizona! Oh and by the way, it might be beach front property best case.
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jen 10:22PM (3/08/2009)
I have a 2008 Honda Civic Hybrid, Never would I recommend anyone purchase this car. We have complained repeatedly to the dealer and Honda. We are now getting 34 mpg, that is an improvement. After accusing us of putting incorrect oil in the car, we insisted on an oil change. Apparently the wrong oil lowers mpg by 10mpg. The car was 4 months old and had never had an oil change. After the change we went from 31 to 34mpg. This is with local driving, mileage will increase with long distance 60+mph. The 40-42mpg drops right back down when we leave the expressway. We paid alot of money for this car and expected more from the car and Honda. I have tried driving in various ways, have change routes home from work and still no real change in performance.
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goforit 8:15AM (7/07/2007)
He's 100% right. We're lied to about virtually everything advertised, nearly contantly and consistently....TV, magazines, internet, politicians, heck, even financial info from the gov is a crock... like inflation and jobless figures is a lie. Since most people know they're being lied to everywhere in everyway possible to get them to spend money they treat it like static even though it's wrong and the unsuspecting get screwed. I hope he wins billions in a class action lawsuit...against somebody.
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Matt 8:39AM (7/07/2007)
I own a Prius, not an amazingly well-styled car, but the mileage is pretty solid.
Here are some of my issues with this guy:
1. "We were going to buy a Ford, I think it's the Ford Hybrid." He didn't even know what he was buying. Did he just stumble on the car, look at the sticker and think, 'Now that sounds like a good idea' when he saw the Escape? If he had bought that and hoped to get amazing mileage, he probably would have filed suit against Ford too.
2. "...we don't speed..." Even if you're not speeding, going the speed limit (70mph here in MI), you get better gas mileage at 60-65mph.
3. Having more than yourself and maybe some luggage in your car, you'll notice a decrease in mileage. A keyboard, amp, and other sound equipment sound kinda heavy. He probably has to put the rear seats down to fit it all in. I've noticed a difference when I drive four people to lunch let alone two people with a bunch of electronic junk.
4. Don't drive it like a standard engine car. Granted you're doing mostly highway, but if you're a little conscious of how you're driving you'll do better. It took me probably a month to really be able to maximize the mileage in my car.
5. I hope this case gets thrown out because of the sheer stupidity of bringing up a suit like this against someone who doesn't have control over the numbers. If you're so gullible that you believe everything the salesman and sticker says, you deserve to be taken. When I was looking for a car, I realized I wasn't going to get 61mpg out of my car in the city even though the sticker said it.
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Chad C 8:48AM (7/07/2007)
Actually, I hear that "better mileage at 60" argument so many times it makes me sick. In my 1998 Ford ZX2, I would get 37-40mpg at 70MPH, and only 34-37mpg at 60MPH. It depends on how everything is geared. It's not just a standard across the board people. Get off the bandwagon, gosh.
Oh, and I pity all the fools who think advertisements are truth. Guess you shouldn't have bought that car now huh? Hope you enjoyed the ride on the media spin machine!
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Rydawg 11:29AM (7/07/2007)
THis guy should have looked a little closer at the Monroney sticker. If he looked below what the EPA posts for gas mileage, he would have seen the best and worst case scenerios. That's where they derive their numbers from. And if he was doing city driving it would be much better.
Or he could've bought a full hybrid like the prius, instead of a mild hybrid, like the civic.
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David 9:10AM (7/07/2007)
Oh gee whiz....another person complaining because they can't figure out how to get good mileage from a hybrid. How original!
My Generation 1 Prius (01 Model) gets great mileage...I've seen as high as 63.7 MPG over 260 miles of freeway @ 65 MPH. I've averaged as high as 55.6 on a complete tank of fuel.
Folks...Honda has a less sophisticated a hybrid system and it is THE BUYERS RESPONSIBILITY to research each and understand THEIR OWN driving habits before the purchase.
Folks like this fool will surely make the automotive world less thrilled to make efficient cars lest they by sued by someone who is incapable of being responsible for his own decisions and purchases.
Thanks Bone-Head
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john 9:22AM (7/07/2007)
I can take his car and get the EPA rating. It will be a painstakingly slow drive and it may even be unsafe,after all I will be trying to gingerly merge into traffic and will being passed by every car that is not travelling 55mph. People don't realize how much driving habits effects fuel economy. I am not blaming consumers for this, but it is not fruad is the numbers are achievable, driving at the posted speedlimits.
By the way, what was the fuel economy rating of Al Gore III's Pruis at 100mph?
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BowserUSC 9:24AM (7/07/2007)
This guy is a joke, and I hope he reads this and sees how much of an idiot I think he is. He knows absolutely nothing about hybrids. Hybrids utilize the battery more efficiently at lower speeds and in stop and go traffic when the advantages of regenerative breaks come into effect. If you're driving on the highway at 70 mph ("we dont speed", give me a break I'm from LA and if you're not going 10 miles over the speed limit everyone is passing you) you are just not gonna get the same fuel efficiency. And when the interviewer told him about that he just says right. He obviously has no clue what is happening and just told a lawyer he was mad and asked if he could sue.
Throw in the fact that he's probably adding hundreds of pounds to his payload, he probably runs the A/C and radio non-stop, (that's a load of bull that you need the a/c on all the time in socal) and there is no surprise he's 'only' getting 35 miles to the gallon. "yeah, we've tried everything else" what do you mean all you told us is that you used cruise control. This guy is a moron and a fool.
Notice how he knows that the best his car has ever gotten is 34.6 mpg, to the tenths place yet he has absolutely no clue what the mpg of his merc is. This guy is just another one of those people who wants everyone to think he's really cool because he owns a hybrid. What a moron and, I'll say it again, a fool.
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Mark Frank 11:21AM (7/07/2007)
This is dumb, the guy just wants money. The EPA makes the ratings so he can't even touch Honda. Just in the fact that he was comparing a Fors Hybrid SUV and a Civic Hybrid says all you need to about this guy. He's dumb
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Chris 11:21AM (7/07/2007)
I get SO tired of hearing all the nonsense about fuel economy numbers being lies.... a car WILL get the mileage advertised (or even better sometimes) IF people will learn to drive for mileage.
We own two cars. One is a 1989 Geo Metro which the EPA and dealer claimed will get 45 MPG on the highway. It's got 160,000 miles on it and STILL gets mileage in the high 50's on the highway and low 50's in city driving.....
The other car is a 92 Town Car - a REAL gas guzzler. If I remember right, the EPA figures said 18 in town, 25 on the highway. With 130 thoussand on the car we're still averaging 23.5 around town and 27 to 30 on the highway.
It's ALL a matter of driving style, getting the junk out of the trunk and a little advance planning when you drive.
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Bruce Kuchta 11:51AM (7/07/2007)
I have been driving a 2006 Civic Hybrid for 13 months. I drive 1500 miles a week, in southern California, about 80% freeway. My driving style is not optimal for good mileage. I have been averaging 40 mpg. I got 41 mpg on a trip to St Louis and back. Not what the EPA numbers say, but much better that this guy is saying.
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hodad66 11:50AM (7/07/2007)
Well, I get 32 mpg's from my Scion xA overall average! I almost never get on an expressway, have roof racks installed, drive with my foot in it & almost always run the AC. (Florida) I paid $13,500 for my Scion.
Now, if I had paid a premium for a hybrid & got 10 or more mpg's less than advertised... I might be PO'd too.
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Greg 3:13PM (7/07/2007)
If this guy could earn money singing, he would not be suing. Soon he will learn the hard way he is bad at both.
I drive a 2002 F150 with a 5.4 V8 rated at 16/19 city/highway. I do not drive particularly gingerly, and I AVERAGE 21.5 mpg or more. All I do is keep an eye out for traffic patterns and or lights and adjust my foot on the the pedal early, minimizing braking and maximizing momentum. I have done this for 20 years and have never had a car that where I did not average at least 10% better than the highway MPG based on the EPA's old standards, which proves that if people get bad mileage, it's because they are inattentive and not too bright.
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Tony Belding 1:00PM (7/07/2007)
I have mixed feelings about this, because you know the mileage figures are calculated according to the EPA standard tests. It's not a number that Honda dreamed up. On the other hand. . . Car makers certainly are able to tune their cars to "game" the system and take advantage of all the quirks in the EPA driving cycle. Honda would hardly be the first to engage in that ploy.
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Josh Oakhurst 1:21PM (7/07/2007)
We have an '03 Civic Hybrid and average 43.2 MPG combined city an HWY. You will get 50 MPG on the HWY in this car if:
1.) You consistently drive 60mph
2.) the road is perfectly flat
3.) there is no other traffic
SoCal freeways aren't exactly known to be traffic free - this guy is averaging pretty good gas mileage for the conditions.
Toss this suit.
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chris 7:26PM (7/07/2007)
Without reading the other posts, I must leave a brief comment. I read the beginning of the interview and lost interest around the forth question. I hate ADD. Anyway, here is my 2 cents. I drive an '07 Honda Fit and see anywhere from 32-40 MPG! This ain't no hybrid and I know that my driving style has a lot to do with it. It's rare that I get 40 MPG, my average is 36 MPG mainly 45MPG highway driving. There must be a reason this guys hybrid Civic has such poor fuel economy though. I mean, either some environmental, mechanical, or other reason.
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Chairman Kaga 1:23PM (7/07/2007)
My dear ol' mum's '05 Toyota Crayola CE averaged about 36MPG driving the two of us from Austin to Dallas for a family weekend. It was hot, so the AC was cranked, we had music on, the traffic wa crappy so we were constantly slowing down, speeding up and occasionally coming to complete stops. Yet we still averaged better in a low-tech econobox than this particular Civic Hybrid. I say particular because some friends have one and have yet to get less than 45mpg on the highway, regardless of driving conditions.
I think he might just have a lemon.
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