Maximum Bob talks pure EV Volt, battery-free Volt and prototype drives!
Scott over at PetroZero had the opportunity to pose some questions to Bob Lutz the other day and, as always, the responses were interesting. First off is the idea of the E-Flex platform operating entirely free of batteries, with the engine/generator simply running continuously and feeding electricity to motor. While this is certainly technically possible, the current E-Flex system is not architected for that possibility. The generator has no direct connection to the motor, rather it feeds the battery. The engine is designed to run at constant speed and wouldn't achieve anywhere near the efficiency if it had to provide transient operation. Because the motor requires more power on demand for acceleration, the engine would have to speed up. In this usage scenario, the efficiency losses of converting mechanical to electrical and back to mechanical power would come in to play as described by Toyota and others when they criticize the whole concept. A conventional parallel hybrid would actually be preferable in this case. The whole premise of improved efficiency from E-Flex is built on the idea that the vehicle will run off grid energy the majority of the time.
The other possibility that Lutz mentions is eliminating the engine/generator and going battery only. This is actually not a new idea and was discussed as a long-term possibility back in late 2006 when GM held the first background briefings on the Volt prior to its auto show debut. The idea is that if battery technology progresses to the point that a Volt type vehicle could provide a reasonable electric range without a range extender just by using a bigger battery, it could easily be done. The idea is mentioned in the first E-Flex technical description I wrote here. Finally, Lutz indicated that within the next two weeks he will be taking an initial test drive in a real Volt prototype. According to Scott this is an actual Volt prototype not a Malibu-based mule. I find that unlikely at this stage. A mule drive is almost a certainty though.
Update: Rob Peterson at GM confirmed that it is only a mule that Lutz will be driving. Actual Volt prototypes are still many months away.
[Source: PetroZero]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Snowdog 10:58AM (4/26/2008)
What they should do, is provide a smaller battery non plug in version. The battery is the major cost element here. Instead of a $15000 battery, put in a $3000 battery. The batter will have lots of juice for smoothing the transients and providing some EV only range, while knocking several hundred pounds of weight and $12000 off the production cost. This way they can sell more vehicles at a lower price point and better amortize the cost of other components.
Reply
Stan 12:19PM (4/26/2008)
Wow! I just realized that maybe eliminating the dead weight of the engine and gas tank along with the mechanical / maintenance would make the car lighter and simpler. Maybe the cost of adding a few more batteries would actually not cost much more. Now it makes sense why Toyota wants to keep it a Synergy Drive. I wonder why we never hear about the next Prius.
Reply
Andras Soltesz 5:44AM (4/27/2008)
Toyota is keeping its cards to its chest regarding the new Prius. The only thing we can know that it will come out in 2009.
Reply
mark 6:09PM (4/26/2008)
'architected'? didn't know architect was a verb. how about 'the volt wasn't designed' for that mode.
sorry to be a grammar nazi but I hate it when we make up verbs when perfectly good ones are available. conserving our natural nouns is just another way to be green.
Reply
Dave B 7:10PM (4/26/2008)
I think this is wondeful news and would personally LOVE to see a BEV version of the Volt. 100 mile + range around 30-35K. I'm a customer!
Reply
why not the LS2LS7? 8:40PM (4/26/2008)
mark:
You're too late. Architected and the verb architect has been in use in computers/tech for over 10 years now.
Reply
Kevin Nugent 11:04PM (4/26/2008)
Could this guy stop talking to the press! I am all for the colt but i just cant stand him sitting there hogging valuable air time. Because of his arrogance and constant spot lie when the volt comes out people will expect th very best and they will be criticized to the extreme because they were always in te spotlight . Once people are depending on you people will criticize your work to the full extent
Reply
Peekoyle 4:43AM (4/27/2008)
Why 'Maximum' Bob? I can understand why he's been given a silly nickname because lets face it, Bob is a 'Corporate Clown'.
Perhaps some other 'Clown Style' nicknames would be appropriate. Like, say 'Bobo Lutz', 'Bob Putz' or 'Maximum Boob'.
Reply
Derek 9:44AM (4/27/2008)
Dave, 100+ miles and 35K is not going to happen soon. If you take figures that the current battery is 600# and $15K to get a 40 mile range you would need a 1500#, $37.5K battery to get 100 miles. Eliminating the (small) gas engine and fuel tank could never save the 900# difference in weight unless it was a diesel V8 (The Duramax 6.6L is close to 900#). At most the gas powered part of the drive train costs $10K, so you've still adding $12.5K to what Bob has said is more likely to be a $40K vehicle.
The current concept is probably the best solution for our current level of technology, IMO. But, give it 10-15 years (or a big redesign with a chassis more like the EV1)
Reply
mike 11:29AM (4/27/2008)
No, the EV1 is the best solution for the vast majority. But, the EV1 still lies Dead in GM's IT Backup Library.
My question is will GM do to the Volt what they did to the EV1? Build some ridiculous dealer questionaire, like Do you know that you will be driving an electric car, and you will have to plug it in daily? Making dealers spend so much time on paperwork that no salesman will want to sell any?
The Volt is more Green BS, just like the Tahoe Hybrid. Too expensive to actually replace even 1% of the gas cars on the road. LONG LIVE THE AUTO-OIL MONOPOLY!!!
Reply
Chris M 11:28PM (4/27/2008)
A smaller battery would also have less power, so there is a limit to how small they can make the battery and still have a practical car.
Even so, there is a good argument to allow some selection in battery pack sizes. Some people might be willing to pay for a bigger battery just to get higher power and better performance. Others would prefer to save some money up-front, and would be happy with the more modest performance and shorter range in a smaller cheaper battery.
Reply
Chris 8:31AM (4/28/2008)
I want to see mileage estimates when taking one on a long trip where no plug is available.
Reply
Derek 12:24PM (4/28/2008)
Chris, those estimates are all over the internet. Google the Chevy Volt website and I think they are there as well.
Mike, the EV1 series hybrid would work for the majority of people. The EV1 would only work as a 2nd or 3rd car for most people. I know I would push the range of the EV1 several times a week and I live in the Detroit metro area. The basic layout of the EV1 (2 seat, compact, low drag) is what needs to be pursued however. All this talk about the Volt seating four "comfortably" makes me think it will be Malibu sized, which is a giant and far larger than needed for four comfortable people.
Reply
Throwback 12:27PM (4/28/2008)
The Volt is being built on the next generation Astra platform. It won't be Malibu sized which has a 112 inch wheelbase.
Reply
T2 1:53PM (6/15/2008)
"First off is the idea of the E-Flex platform operating entirely free of batteries, with the engine/generator simply running continuously and feeding electricity to motor. While this is certainly technically possible, the current E-Flex system is not architected for that possibility.
The generator has no direct connection to the motor, rather it feeds the battery." !!!!!!!!
Well call me hotdog and cover me with mustard. The generator must be connected to the battery, right ? And the battery, via the controller, must be connected to the motor. Ergo, the generator must be connected to the motor.
Minimum Bob is Robert Nardelli of Chrysler so called because he has minimal skills to run a car company, his record with Home Depot,previously, not great either. Why Bob Lutz maximum Bob ? search me.
Reply
T2 2:15PM (6/15/2008)
"First off is the idea of the E-Flex platform operating entirely free of batteries, with the engine/generator simply running continuously and feeding electricity to motor. While this is certainly technically possible, the current E-Flex system is not architected for that possibility.
The generator has no direct connection to the motor, rather it feeds the battery." !!!!!!!!
Well call me hot dog and cover me with mustard.
The generator is connected to the battery right ?
And the battery is connected, via the controller, to the motor ? Ergo the generator IS connected to the motor.
Aa a general comment why would a company of GM's size not have a design team heading up each of these variants ? Why leave credit for the battery free version on the table for Honda ?
T2
Minimum Bob is Robert Nardelli who is said to have minimal skills to run a car company. His record at Home Depot was not good either.
Maximum Bob. I'm not sure where that originates but someone is bound to post.
Reply
jfinlayson+autobloggreen 6:00PM (6/16/2008)
Chris wrote: "I want to see mileage estimates when taking one on a long trip where no plug is available."
Derek wrote: "Chris, those estimates are all over the internet. Google the Chevy Volt website and I think they are there as well."
Derek, Chris was being sarcastic. Picture driving from Reno to Denver in your 1500-pound battery-only Volt, and running out of charge 100 miles from Reno. Where do you plug it in? The best you can hope for our there right now is haggling with a gas station or motel manager to plug your car in for 8 hours.
Others seem to suggest that plug-in hybrids are evil imposters to the virtuous purity that was EV1. I think that's self-defeating, because EV has a major chicken/egg problem -- the absence of a ubiquitous rapid-charging stations is a huge barrier. Plug-in hybrids will create a market for a nationwide charging infrastructure. Once that infrastructure is in place, EV can take over.
Reply
lifeshard 11:28PM (8/22/2008)
Once that infrastructure is in place, EV can take over.
EXACTLY and electric is the easiest "universal fuel" infrastructure to develop. a coin box with a electric switch on a timer.
Imagine, a parking meter, with a power switch. Every business parking spot can be recharge station. Charge slightly more and make profit off the power. Enough parking customers and your whole electric bill might be paid for. These devices are the lowest tech you can think of, a parking meter with an outlet. The biggest gain would be from the reduction of vehicle battery packs. With places to charge everywhere you deal with much shorter ranges and less batteries needed to get you safely around. Instead of building gas stations and then the transport of the gas, you can sell $100 meters that make money for the owners, everyone would want one. I dont mind charging my family a dollar a visit.
Seriously this is the next necessary step in our future, our transport system must accept power generated from all sources. Then our cars are actually powered by wind, sun, water, coal, geo, nuclear, whatever we can figure out thats best for environment and our children's future. Putting all our eggs in to the dirty oil basket and waiting till its all gone to change things, isn't what our kids deserve of us. For the simple change of a gasoline motor to an electric motor, we can have it all. The infrastructure of a coin box with a electric switch on a timer, think about it. It would be so easy..
jfinlayson+autobloggreen 6:00PM (6/16/2008)
"'architected'?"
Yes. Architect was, er, "verbed" (*duck*) a long time ago.
Reply
Chris M 6:47PM (6/16/2008)
T2: The generator in a serial hybrid feeds electricity to the main power bus, which delivers that power directly to the motor controller and/or battery pack, as needed. No, it is not necessary to route all the power through the batteries. There is a direct electrical connection between the generator and motor, but there is no mechanical link between the IC engine and the wheels - that is what makes it a "serial hybrid".
Reply