Next-gen Prius to get larger engine, more efficient
Click on the photo for a gallery of high-res images of the Hybrid-X Concept
There's a good deal that we already know about Toyota's next Prius. For instance, we expect it to make its formal debut in 2009 at the Detroit Auto Show, along with a possible Lexus sister. We know that Toyota plans to increase production by 60 percent in 2009. We also expect Prius V.3 to be equipped with nickel metal hydride batteries to start, though lithium ions could go into the Lexus model. A recent article on Auto Observer reinforces all of these points and adds that Toyota is planning to increase the displacement of the new Prius' internal combustion engine to 1.8 liters from today's 1.5 liters. This should offer twenty-five extra horsepower from the engine, pushing total power to a combined 160 horses. Even with the added gumption, the next Prius is expected to post an efficiency increase of around 10 percent, possibly achieving 50-55 miles per gallon in the real world.
The next-gen Prius is expected to grow a bit larger and could get a wagon option as well, though the assorted hybrid bits will actually decrease in size. If the next Prius grows too large for your needs, rumors indicate that a smaller hybrid under the Prius banner is also possible. Auto Observer quotes an anonymous source as suggesting that the next generation Prius is "still Prius-eque, but a bit bigger and more solid looking." The current Prius' styling is an acquired taste, but most consider Gen-2 better looking than Gen-1. We have high hopes for the next Prius redesign, and the possible Prius brand as well.
[Source: Auto Observer]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Mike Z 12:36PM (4/29/2008)
I'm not a fan of the windshield fangs....
Wish they would do a sporty hatchback version, along the line of the Mazda 3 or Saturn Astra, that would be a winner.
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Taser 1:06PM (4/29/2008)
Adding a bigger engine is a mistake in my opinion. It most likely has reduced the amount of fuel efficiency gained from the new hybrid system.
It's not like the Prius needs more power. Heck, the next-gen Prius will now have almost 30 more horsepower than my 1998 Camry. My Camry gets around just fine and weighs 300lbs more than the current Prius.
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armmat 1:43PM (4/29/2008)
I'm not surprised it's getting more power and getting bigger. Given the limited mental capacity of dumb American consumers, it's pretty much a given. They need to feel like they are in their freaking living rooms when in a car. Real retarded bunch.
Anyone with half a brain would realize the current Pruis interior is LARGE. More than enough room to carry 4 or 5 people in comfort.
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fnc 1:48PM (4/29/2008)
I'm curious why Toyota would go down this road after what I've read indicates that edging towards performance killed demand for the Civic hybrid. But it appears this change isn't about performance so much as being able to offer a larger car with increased efficiency (I'll be impressed if it turns out so), which would theoretically mean a larger market for the car. I've wondered if there are some efficiency gains to be had from software tuning and better battery utilization in hybrid cars, which haven't enjoyed the century plus development effort pure gas cars have behind them.
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Mike Z 1:51PM (4/29/2008)
Why does Displacement = Inefficiently??
After all, Optimizing a hybrid powertrain might well take advantage of a larger engine. IE a more aggressive Miller Cycle engine.
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Clark 2:11PM (4/29/2008)
I believe the Corrolla's when to 1.8, so this decision is probably based on standardizing on a common engine. As was pointed out, it does not mean that it actually sucks in more gas, I bet if you compare older Corrolla's to the newer ones (when they switched) you will find that the mpg did not decrease.
My disappointment lies with the decision to make it bigger. The Prius doesn't need to be bigger. It seems like car companies can only justify an upgrade by making a car bigger. Especially after they've put all this effort into shrinking the hybrid components.
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Mike Z 2:14PM (4/29/2008)
Nah, I see the Prius taking on the role of the Accord for Honda
Getting bigger to follow the generational trends of the buyers, while smaller cars (Civic and FIT) come along on the back end to fill the smaller car market.
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dcwf 3:23PM (4/29/2008)
Not so complicated. Increasing the car's footprint while retaining or improving the engine's efficiency will help Toyota meet the new corporate CAFE requirments.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04/28/now-we-know-why-the-automakers-werent-screaming-over-the-cafe-r/
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Karkus 3:24PM (4/29/2008)
The article clearly says that they'll make both a larger AND a smaller Prius version. That should make everyone happy.
Also, in a hybrid, a larger engine doesn't necessarily mean lower mpgs. The main problem with big engines is that they suck for idling and low speed driving. If most of that driving is EV, then a big engine isn't much of a liability.
There could be benefits gained by being able to charge the battery faster and thereby keeping the engine off longer (or not draining the battery as fast on really long steep hills).
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kert 4:29PM (4/29/2008)
No plug ? Yawn
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Bill 4:54PM (4/29/2008)
A wagon version would be very welcome.
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Nathaniel Sears 5:10PM (4/29/2008)
i test drove a 2008 and i actually thought it was kind of big. Now considering I'm only 16 and am used to driving low to the ground small cars it might just be me but why bigger, i mean when it's selling like it is why change the potential audience. if it will sell i guess thats all that matters to toyota. and nickel metal batteries why not take the next step. competition is catching up toyota if you want the market work to keep it don't just give it away.
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jake 6:41PM (4/29/2008)
@Nathaniel Sears
I think it has everything to do with those people who look at it's smaller profile in the outside, and think that its very small inside. Also has to do with the people who refuse to say it's practically a midsize because the outside dimensions are smaller. So Toyota figured it's not that hard to add a few inches outside and have people stop thinking it's too small. As for the bigger engine it's to address those who said it was too underpowered. But I think most of the people who brought up all the shortcomings of the current prius just doesn't like the prius and they still won't like it with these changes.
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Bryan 1:34PM (5/01/2008)
Looks very similar to the Opel/Saturn Flextreme to me.
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mike 9:28PM (4/29/2008)
I'd rather see a SMALLER GAS engine and a LARGER ELECTRIC engine. I would expect that every generation would continue that trend until you only use the gas engine serially in emergencies.
A larger engine will have bigger pistons and will require more fuel to explode to push those pistons. A larger engine means more performance which is the OPPOSITE of Efficiency.
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T2 10:48PM (4/29/2008)
Yeah Mike,
I agree with you, since when has a larger displacement engine sucked less fuel ? This sounds like a marketing spin. The current Prius could be improved without so much major change. Besides, isn't the Hybrid Camry the next size up ? Why would they need a larger Prius before they hybridise the Corolla. Or does that mean the Corolla hybrid is not going to happen ?
Who is calling for more power ? I've test driven this car. It is powerful enough and that's comparing to my own vehicles which are in the eight seconds to sixty class. It's seamless acceleration gives the illusion it's slow. In fact its 20-50mph accel ramp is quite good.
Generally speaking with conventional transmission the only way to improve a so-so mpg figure is to supply an extra tall gear in the final drive differential. GM is doing this right now with the Cobalt as this press release outlines : -
GM Introduces Higher Fuel Economy Version of the Cobalt 29 April 2008.
GM has introduced the new Chevy Cobalt XFE (Xtra Fuel Economy). Powered by a 2.2L Ecotec engine, and available now, the Cobalt XFE delivers 25 mpg US city and 36 mpg highway—an improvement of more than 9% over the previous highway rating.
With manual transmission, a revised engine calibration, low rolling-resistance tires,
AND A NEW 3.74:1 final drive ratio.
The current Prius could have a modest upgrade by increasing the NiMH battery draw from 100 to 135 amps. Calculations show this battery should be capable of 180amps, so it has been conservatively rated for years - time to unloosen the screws, so to speak. That would give an extra 10Hp for MG2.
MG2 itself would be upgraded by first changing the final drive ratio from 4.113 to 5.00 while at the same time discarding the sprocket chain takeoff as is now done with the Hybrid Camry. Changing the ratio does minimal amount to the vehicle performance by itself, unlike the Chevy Cobalt, since we are talking about a constant power system here. However raising the rpms of MG2 by 20% over the same vehicle speed range has the effect of increasing the specific power of MG2 from 50kw to 60kw. I am suggesting to capitalize on 7kw of that. To do this a stator winding change, reducing turns by 20% and increasing the copper wire diameter by 10%, will be necessary. The software current limit settings on battery draw will need changing also but the engine,MG1 and the PSD will remain unaltered.
That is my idea how an upgrade should be conducted. Just the removal of the sprocket to sprocket power transfer may reduce fuel consumption by 5 or 6% incidentally.
T2
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ronal 3:36AM (5/02/2008)
I dont want no freaking Van. I want something cool looking and efficient, that is why I decided to buy the civic hybrid. I liked the prius system better than the Honda, but the style was not right for a 23 year old male....y
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Peekoyle 9:09AM (4/30/2008)
It looks like a giant hamster.
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Jon 12:10PM (4/30/2008)
Toyota's taking a similar approach to the 2nd gen upgrade, looking for an ideal balancing of increased efficiency and increased size/power utility.
Toyota's whole approach with the Prius has been to make a highly efficient car that can appeal to mainstream users. It's not trying to make a car that's either as efficient as humanly possible or as powerful as humanly possible, but one that can convince main street that a hybrid can be a practical and even a desirable solution to their transportation needs. It's shooting for the middle of the market. It wants to show you can drive a hybrid and improve your mpg and lessen your environmental impact at a cost comparable to cars with similar size/features, and all without significantly altering your lifestyle. That's what Prius is. This upgrade is directly in that tradition.
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T2 5:08PM (4/30/2008)
Jon, your proscribed mission for Prius
" one that can convince main street that a hybrid can be a practical and even a desirable solution to their transportation needs"
I think we can say that at 240,000 a year
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED !!!!!!!
What some of us are looking for now is a major mileage improvement. What we actually seem to be getting here is a larger and heavier vehicle, but with improved performance, if I'm reading you right.
My previous post assumed the possibility of a simple upgrade of MG2 and unleashing of more of the capacity of the NiMH battery before Li-ion arrives. I did not expect Toyota instead to be fiddling with the engine size and therefore with MG1 also. Where are the cost reductions promised for this revised powertrain ?
I have a problem with all this. First with the choice of the dual VVT-i 1.8L engine. To begin with this is a more complicated engine I think we can agree. Isn't the Prius complicated enough already ? Furthermore, this hand-me-down 1.8L is a conventional automobile engine designed initially to interface with manual and automatic transmissions requiring shaft input powers at below 6000 rpm in order to accomodate rapid clutch changes. Whereas the HSD planetary, with its 'no clutch' system, is able to safely handle much higher input rpms. I should think the Prius, at the very least, deserves its own engine by now. A simpler engine that can take advantage of the Toyota HSD's unique requirements. A lightweight two cylinder, able to deliver the same power but at higher rpm and somewhat lower torque. The parallel twin from the Fiat Panda Aria concept comes to mind. Lower torque from the engine to be countered by lower torque from MG1. As I have written before, electrical machines are sized by torque and not by power. Consequently lower torque enables the use of a smaller and less expensive MG1. I would think that the lower cost of a downsized MG1 together with an engine of fewer cylinders but with equal performance would bring this vehicle more downmarket towards FIT and Yaris and at a pricepoint this market can afford.
The installation of a larger more complicated engine on the other hand seems to be a step in the wrong direction. For a start, the extra torque of the 1.8L will require supersizing of MG1. Not good. And as I responded to Mike, since when has a larger displacement engine ever sucked less fuel ? If this is the best that Toyota can do, I can't see a lot of people running to unload their current Prius's when this new version appears.
From a marketing perspective perhaps you can tell me where this vehicle is placed in relation to the Hybrid Camry ?
Finally, if Bob Lutz brings out the VOLT with its 'virtual battery' as recently announced, I think this Prius will have competition.
T2
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